Delta To Issue Major Widebody RFP For 747/767 Replacements

[topDawg]

I've also told you that DL was focused on the NE and NYC specifically, then would shift to the west and Europe, and Latin America from the most competitive markets would come next.

DOT revenue absolutely confirms what DL execs have said that the Gol and AeroMexico partnerships/investments are generating real benefits for DL including relative to competitors in the market.

You can't help but believe that DL will use those advantages esp. as Open Skies (nearly) comes to Mexico and to Brazil this year.

I'm happy to be shown that I am wrong if I am.

so do you accept the bet?

Open skies in Brazil is useless. GRU still has no slots. 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I've also told you that DL was focused on the NE and NYC specifically, then would shift to the west and Europe, and Latin America from the most competitive markets would come next.
 

 

 

[WorldTraveler]

Open skies in Brazil is useless. GRU still has no slots.

wrong. the new terminal that was just opened allowed significant expansion of slots. the primary limitation on slots at GRU was due to a lack of parking space and terminal facilities. Many int'l carriers have moved to the new terminal (3) while DL remains in one of the older terminals, both of which are being renovated.

further, DL owns equity in Gol which is a major operator at GRU which has an abundance of slots. DL at best needs a pair or two more.

and strategically, DL doesn't have need of a whole lot of new routes. What they have long wanted is the feed internally within Brazil to distribute passengers such that they can upgrade aircraft. The NW 330s weren't capable of flying GRU to the US. both versions of the new 330s will be able to and reduce CASM at the same time.

DL can grow with at best a couple new flights and larger gauge on the flights DL does operate thanks to the new aircraft and the Gol partnership.

further, the Brazilian economy is slowing down. there won't be significant growth in capacity to/from/within Brazil

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The NW 330s weren't capable of flying GRU to the US.

 
What do you mean?  GRU from the old NW hubs (DTW and MSP) is well under 6000 miles.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

What do you mean?  GRU from the old NW hubs (DTW and MSP) is well under 6000 miles.

The whole truth:

Airbus A330-323
MTOW: 606,300 lbs.
Range: 6,524 statute miles
Speed: 541 mph
Seats: 298 Passengers (34 BusinessElite, 264 Coach)
Length: 208 ft., 10 in.
Wingspan: 197 ft., 10 in.

Distance from Detroit DTW to São Paulo GRU: 5116 miles

"A330-300

Northwest's first scheduled A330-300 flight left Detroit on August 25, 2003, and arrived in Amsterdam the next morning.

The A330-300 became Northwest's transatlantic flagship aircraft, gradually replacing Douglas DC-10-30s. The last Northwest DC-10 ended international service on October 29, 2006, and retired from domestic service on January 8, 2007.

The A330's fuel efficiency allowed Northwest to increase transatlantic service by 12% from 2000-2007, but use almost 30% less fuel. Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said the fuel-efficient A330 fleet was part of the "greening of Northwest Airlines." The A330 was much quieter and 35% more efficient than the DC-10 aircraft it replaced.

In October 2007, Northwest received its 32nd A330 aircraft, making it the largest A330 operator in the world. Northwest now had the youngest international fleet of any North American airline, and the youngest transatlantic fleet of any North American or European carrier.

A330-200
Northwest accepted delivery of the smaller, longer-range A330-200 on July 21, 2004, and it arrived in Minnesota/St. Paul on July 22. Northwest configured the A330-200 with 243 seats: 32 World Business Class and 211 in Coach. The A330-200 could fly about 17 percent further than the larger A330-300 model.

The A330-200 made its first scheduled flight with Northwest on September 1, 2004, between Portland, Oregon, and Tokyo-Narita. It was Northwest's first new aircraft type across the Pacific since the Boeing 747-400. The A330-200 began replacing DC-10-30 and Boeing 747-200 aircraft serving destinations in Asia.

The 1,000th aircraft made by Airbus was an A330-200 delivered to Northwest in November 2004.

More Information
Delta's A330 Fleet List: Ship, registration and serial numbers and engine type for each aircraft as of September 1, 2013
Delta.com: A330-200 seat maps
Delta.com: A330-300 seat maps
Airbus.com: A330 development, specifications, news and shopping

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The whole truth:

Airbus A330-323
MTOW: 606,300 lbs.
Range: 6,524 statute miles
Speed: 541 mph
Seats: 298 Passengers (34 BusinessElite, 264 Coach)
Length: 208 ft., 10 in.
Wingspan: 197 ft., 10 in.

Distance from Detroit DTW to São Paulo GRU: 5116 miles

 
 That's what I thought reading WTs post, but I didn't have my

handy to be certain.  Although I'm bracing myself for a response indicating how just by re-painting the NW A330s in the DL livery improved their performance ... ... ... And it kind of reminds me of his previous posts of how the A310 can't make it from the northeast USA  to Europe ... ... ...

 

[WorldTraveler]

GRU is at 2500 feet of elevation and NW's choice to use the lowest powered PW engines renders the aircraft unusable at GRU. DL has used the 332 on ATL-EZE, which is only about 100 miles shorter than DTW-GRU.

ATL-GRU is 300 miles shorter than DTW-GRU but DL doesn't use it on ATL-GRU route either.

you can tell me why DL uses the 763 and 764 to GRU but not the 332 or 333 but has used both the 763 and 764 as well as the 332 to EZE.

 

[FWAAA]

The initial version of the A333 was a mid-range plane that was not envisioned as a long-haul aircraft - Airbus put its long-haul eggs in the A340 basket. Since the A333 entered service, Airbus has made multiple modifications to increase its range by more than 50% in response to the success of the 767s and the 777s at long-haul missions. Don't know the exact version that NW bought, but the US pilots (BoeingBoy and others) that the US A333s are short-legged compared to new models. Same thing Piedmont did with its 762s, as they were very short-range compared to most 762s. Couple links that discuss the A333 improvements:

http://aviationweek.com/awin/airbus-pushes-limits-a330-range

http://airinsight.com/2012/07/05/the-continuous-improvement-of-the-a330/#.VMPoTP7F-So

 

[Kev3188]

A330-200
Northwest accepted delivery of the smaller, longer-range A330-200 on July 21, 2004, and it arrived in Minnesota/St. Paul on July 22. Northwest configured the A330-200 with 243 seats: 32 World Business Class and 211 in Coach. The A330-200 could fly about 17 percent further than the larger A330-300 model.

The A330-200 made its first scheduled flight with Northwest on September 1, 2004, between Portland, Oregon, and Tokyo-

Truly a red letter day...

Used to love the '10. Then I had to work it.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The initial version of the A333 was a mid-range plane that was not envisioned as a long-haul aircraft - Airbus put its long-haul eggs in the A340 basket. Since the A333 entered service, Airbus has made multiple modifications to increase its range by more than 50% in response to the success of the 767s and the 777s at long-haul missions. Don't know the exact version that NW bought, but the US pilots (BoeingBoy and others) that the US A333s are short-legged compared to new models. Same thing Piedmont did with its 762s, as they were very short-range compared to most 762s. Couple links that discuss the A333 improvements:

http://aviationweek.com/awin/airbus-pushes-limits-a330-range

http://airinsight.com/2012/07/05/the-continuous-improvement-of-the-a330/#.VMPoTP7F-So

NW's 330s are not that old... they have the range to do near 12 hour flights... same as the 764. DL has used the 333 on FCO-ATL which is nearly a 12 block hour flight in the summer.

the problem is that NW chose the lowest power version of the aircraft. GRU is not at sea level and carries significant amounts of cargo.

DL loves the 330's economics and size and would love to put a 300 seat aircraft into GRU but they have determined the current 330s won't work without significant payload restrictions... and Airbus charts indicate that is likely the case. DL has a practice of buying the highest thrust engines available and the heavy gross weight 333s and the 339s will likely be capable of operating out of GRU

it is precisely because Airbus has kept pulling more and more out of the 330 that the newest HGW 33s are now capable of flying many routes that a 772ER flies. given that the 333 is about 50K pounds lighter than the 772ER, the improved economics follow.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

the problem is that NW chose the lowest power version of the aircraft. GRU is not at sea level and carries significant amounts of cargo.
 

 
Are the PW4000 on the A330 that much underpowered compared to the GE and RR?
 
Airbus shows the A330-300 range from Brazil/GRU covers most of North America.
 
And according to wiki (so it has to be true ) the PW4000 have have 70000lbf of thrust compared to 71000lbf for the RR engines and 72000lbf for the GE engines.

 

[WorldTraveler]

IIRC, they are 68K pound class engines. 72K is available and the HGW 333s will have 72K class engines.

and once again a range chart doesn't work because it doesn't consider the altitude of GRU.

GIG is at sea level but GRU is not.

 

[topDawg]

NW's 330s are not that old... they have the range to do near 12 hour flights... same as the 764. DL has used the 333 on FCO-ATL which is nearly a 12 block hour flight in the summer.

the problem is that NW chose the lowest power version of the aircraft. GRU is not at sea level and carries significant amounts of cargo.

DL loves the 330's economics and size and would love to put a 300 seat aircraft into GRU but they have determined the current 330s won't work without significant payload restrictions... and Airbus charts indicate that is likely the case. DL has a practice of buying the highest thrust engines available and the heavy gross weight 333s and the 339s will likely be capable of operating out of GRU

it is precisely because Airbus has kept pulling more and more out of the 330 that the newest HGW 33s are now capable of flying many routes that a 772ER flies. given that the 333 is about 50K pounds lighter than the 772ER, the improved economics follow.

No they don't. That isn't even close to true. I can't think of many fleets that have the highest thrust engine. 
A320s don't. 
A330s don't (NW aircraft and 242t version) 
MD88s do (I think the 219 is as high as you can go, but I am not sure you could get a 88 with a 217) 
MD90s do not I think. 
717s I don't know
73G does
738s Don't
739 do
757 don't. Delta does have some 2040 engines but most of the fleet is 2037s. As it is Pratt offers a 43K engine for the 757. 
767s do on the CF6 powered birds, but have 4060s on the 767. (4062 is the highest) 
77L don't
77Es do
744s don't 
321s will. 
 
So no Delta generally does not go highest thrust. 1 or two steps lower is normally what they do. The 321/739s have the highest thrust because they are pigs compared to the 757 they are replacing. 
 

 
Are the PW4000 on the A330 that much underpowered compared to the GE and RR?
 
Airbus shows the A330-300 range from Brazil/GRU covers most of North America.
 
And according to wiki (so it has to be true ) the PW4000 have have 70000lbf of thrust compared to 71000lbf for the RR engines and 72000lbf for the GE engines.

I am not sure where wiki got that from. The TCDS for the 330 only lists the the CF6 having a max of 68K. The PW4170 never happened so the max for that engine is the PW4168 which is a 68K engine. The T700 does go to 71000 on both the 332 and 333. 
 

IIRC, they are 68K pound class engines. 72K is available and the HGW 333s will have 72K class engines.

and once again a range chart doesn't work because it doesn't consider the altitude of GRU.

GIG is at sea level but GRU is not.

GE doesn't have a CF6 for a 333 that is higher than 68K. the CF6-80E1A3 is the highest thrust engine for the 330 and it is 68,530 max thrust. 
 
but the 330 in fleet can do GRU. Delta just doesn't need the capacity with ATL-GRU number 2 now here. 
 

wrong. the new terminal that was just opened allowed significant expansion of slots. the primary limitation on slots at GRU was due to a lack of parking space and terminal facilities. Many int'l carriers have moved to the new terminal (3) while DL remains in one of the older terminals, both of which are being renovated.

further, DL owns equity in Gol which is a major operator at GRU which has an abundance of slots. DL at best needs a pair or two more.

and strategically, DL doesn't have need of a whole lot of new routes. What they have long wanted is the feed internally within Brazil to distribute passengers such that they can upgrade aircraft. The NW 330s weren't capable of flying GRU to the US. both versions of the new 330s will be able to and reduce CASM at the same time.

DL can grow with at best a couple new flights and larger gauge on the flights DL does operate thanks to the new aircraft and the Gol partnership.

further, the Brazilian economy is slowing down. there won't be significant growth in capacity to/from/within Brazil

All I know is Delta has asked for slots at GRU for the 747 before and been told no. May not be the case now however. 
 

GRU is at 2500 feet of elevation and NW's choice to use the lowest powered PW engines renders the aircraft unusable at GRU. DL has used the 332 on ATL-EZE, which is only about 100 miles shorter than DTW-GRU.

ATL-GRU is 300 miles shorter than DTW-GRU but DL doesn't use it on ATL-GRU route either.

you can tell me why DL uses the 763 and 764 to GRU but not the 332 or 333 but has used both the 763 and 764 as well as the 332 to EZE.

Delta hasn't used the 330 to GRU because they don't feel the need for the capacity. You are talking about a big step up for a lot of the network out of GRU. 
 
ATL-GRU is 2x 763 for most of the year (1x 764 1x 763 in the Brazil summer, our winter) and DTW-GRU is 1x 763. So Delta would upgrade ATL-GRU to 764s and/or 332s before going 333. That is why they use 763/764. The 333 is to much capacity. (and if Delta adds capacity it will be via more flights. JFK-GRU number 2.) 
 
 
having said that, Delta doesn't have the lowest powered 330s. The only engine that is higher powered is the Trent 772B-60. The CF6 and PW4168 max at 68K. (and the CF6 goes as low as 64K) 
However, Northwest picked Pratt because they were offering the 4170 which was to be a 70K motor. 
but due to mismanagement they engine was a failure and NW was stuck with the 4168. My understanding is NW did take a small look at switching to the Trent but it wasn't cost effective. 
 
having said all that the 332 can fly to GRU easy. The 333 should also be able to do it. They have done longer flights in the past. 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Thanks for clearing things up Dawg. It makes more sense that the reason for DL not using A330s to Brazil is more of a capacity issue than a performance (range + engines).

 

[yoyodyne]

 
DL's first 242T A330

 
 

Waiting to hear where it will fly

 
 
Hopefully with lots of luck, it will be one way trips..
 
ATL - GYR
ATL - ROW
ATL - MHV
 
...