Delta To Issue Major Widebody RFP For 747/767 Replacements

[Kev3188]

 

Taking your ball and going home now huh? 
 
Had fun proving you wrong yet again champ. On to the next thread.......

It's all very cyclical, isn't it?

 

[700UW]

AA and US both use RB211s on the 757s.
 
The 333s have PWs on them and US wasnt happy with their performance so that is why they went with Trents on the 332.

 

[robbedagain]

700  did US convert the 333s after they weren't happy?  or is it too costly to do that?

 

[700UW]

Too much money.
 
But I do believe RR gave US some money back, there was a heated exchange between CEO at the time Rakseh Gangwal and PW executives.

 

[WorldTraveler]

see DL and US do have some things in common - their disappointment in PW and their desire to go with Rolls for future orders, even if they are stuck with the decisions that were previously made.

I believe Rolls is the largest engine supplier for the 330 so perhaps everyone else figured it out

perhaps dawg can do the calculations but I'd like to see where DL ends up compared to other carriers in terms of the number of Rolls powered aircraft.

 

[robbedagain]

thanks 700

 

[topDawg]

nope.... I am noting that you haven't proven that DL's peer airlines have significantly more power on their aircraft than DL has.... you have yet to prove that the "larger" engines that are available but DL didn't choose to order are really used to any significant degree among US passenger airlines... and more significantly, you haven't proven that the 330s will ever end up at GRU.

the aircraft that were the subject of this RFP will, however.

You are back to looking for a pissing contest. I didn't say any of that. You made a stupid and false statement that Delta almost always goes with the highest thrust engine when they don't 
 

AA and US both use RB211s on the 757s.
 
The 333s have PWs on them and US wasnt happy with their performance so that is why they went with Trents on the 332.

Which thrust plug do they use on the 757 though...?
 
 

700  did US convert the 333s after they weren't happy?  or is it too costly to do that?

to much. Same deal with Delta/Northwest. 
 

see DL and US do have some things in common - their disappointment in PW and their desire to go with Rolls for future orders, even if they are stuck with the decisions that were previously made.

I believe Rolls is the largest engine supplier for the 330 so perhaps everyone else figured it out

perhaps dawg can do the calculations but I'd like to see where DL ends up compared to other carriers in terms of the number of Rolls powered aircraft.

~682 PW engines (PW4000, PW2000, JT8D) 
~632 GE engines + ~246 on order (types CFM56, CF6, GE90) 
~240 RR engines + ~212 on order (types Trent 800, Trent 7000, TrentXWB, Trent 1000, BR715) 
 
I didn't include 130 or so V2500 engine because IAE is now owned by Pratt but the engine has a ton of Rolls sourced parts (and was originally a jv between PW and RR) so I was not sure who to give those to. If I did Pratt would have 812 engine or Rollers would have 370 engines) 
 
Pratt is the largest now but all of the Pratt engines are going away over time. With no orders they will keep getting smaller and smaller. However they could come back with a GTF order on the A320NEO
 
Also a note this is based off of public info and is on wing only. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

thank you for the calculations, dawg.

no, I am not looking for a pissing contest.

I'm still not sure there were higher thrust engines available for several of the fleet types at the time DL ordered, including the PW 767-300ERs, but you also haven't shown me what other passenger airlines have ordered them if that is true. The PW 2037 engine is the standard for domestic use PW 757s.

I'm more interested in knowing of any other airlines with fleets the size of DL's 738s that went with higher thrust GE/Snecmas.

 

[topDawg]

I'm still not sure there were higher thrust engines available for several of the fleet types at the time DL ordered, including the PW 767-300ERs, but you also haven't shown me what other passenger airlines have ordered them if that is true. The PW 2037 engine is the standard for domestic use PW 757s.

per the TCDS the PW4062 was certificated in 1989 and the first 763ER came in 1990 so shouldn't have been an issue (because it would have been offered earlier than 1989 that is just when the FAA signed the paper work)
 
and I am not arguing that 37K motors aren't what is normally used. Might not be a single 757 in the world with 43K engines for all I know.
but again, you said Delta goes for the highest thrust and they don't. They generally have 2040s or 2037s on the 752 fleet. 
 

I'm more interested in knowing of any other airlines with fleets the size of DL's 738s that went with higher thrust GE/Snecmas.

Like i said, couldn't tell you. Don't know and don't really care. 
 
but, and you would have to confirm with some at AA, I believe they have the 27K motors on the 738 fleet. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and then I would have to ask what can AA do with its 738s that DL cannot.

the higher thrust engines on DL's 767s and 777s have made a difference compared to UA's

 

[topDawg]

and then I would have to ask what can AA do with its 738s that DL cannot.

its going to lower the thrust to weight ratio 
 
my understanding, and again might be completely wrong, is they got them for some of the MIA-south routes. 
 

the higher thrust engines on DL's 767s and 777s have made a difference compared to UA's

And I am sure that having higher thrust engines on the 744 and higher MTOW on UAs 744s help too. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and if the MIA-South routes is true, DL still heavily relies on the 757s for Latin America.

you can calculate the thrust to weight ratio for the 319s and 73Ws compared to the 757s but that is precisely why DL is refurbing the 319s to be capable of high performance Latin America flying which has been the role the 73W has done - or where larger capacity has been needed, the 757.

And you are right that UA made the right call regarding higher TOW 744s than NW.

 

[topDawg]

and if the MIA-South routes is true, DL still heavily relies on the 757s for Latin America.

you can calculate the thrust to weight ratio for the 319s and 73Ws compared to the 757s but that is precisely why DL is refurbing the 319s to be capable of high performance Latin America flying which has been the role the 73W has done - or where larger capacity has been needed, the 757.

And you are right that UA made the right call regarding higher TOW 744s than NW.

Oh Jesus not THIS again. 
No that is not even remotely what is happening. Delta is updating the cabin on the 319s because they suck. 
 
The A319s Delta has will not, ever in my life time, your life time or anyone's life time......be remotely comparable to the 737-732s. 
As I have told you, Delta's 73Ws have CFM56-7B26 engines on them, 52K of thrust combined. The A319s have the CFM56-5A5's which have 23K worth of thrust, 46K combined thrust. 
So outside of an engine change (which wont happen) the Delta 319s will not ever be powerful enough to be compared to Delta's 73Ws. 
AVOD only makes that worse because not only do they have engine limits but you are adding more empty weight to an airplane that has low MTOWs because of the low engine thrust. 
 
 
the only airplanes in the US that I know of that are comparable to the Delta 73W fleet are the native AA 319s. They also have the highest MTOW package and CFM56-5B7s which are 27K engines. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL is updating the cabins of the 320s as well but they are not doing the same thing to both.

No one said that DL's 319s are comparable to the 73Ws. but they are better powered than other aircraft and the 319 is an option for some new growth routes in Latin America.

and again, DL plans on holding onto a fairly large fleet of 757s compared to AA and UA.

AA specifically ordered their 319s with the intention of using them to Latin America, which they are doing.

WN will likely heavily use their 737-700s on their Latin America routes as well.

UA has a fairly large fleet of generously powered narrowbodies as well.

all of the big 4 are large enough to have subfleets that are well-suited for high performance work whether it be widebody or narrowbody fleets.

 

[topDawg]

DL is updating the cabins of the 320s as well but they are not doing the same thing to both.

has nothing to do with where they are flying
has everything to do with they are some of the oldest 320s flying and wont be in the fleet for more than 5 or so years. 
 

No one said that DL's 319s are comparable to the 73Ws. but they are better powered than other aircraft and the 319 is an option for some new growth routes in Latin America.

note really. 738 are still going to be the better airplane for anywhere a 319 can go. 
 

 

WN will likely heavily use their 737-700s on their Latin America routes as well.

but wont be able to preform much better than a 738. Low engines and high cabin weight 
 

UA has a fairly large fleet of generously powered narrowbodies as well.

not really. The V2500s on the 319/320 are all low thrusts IIRC. CFM56 is the better engine which is why AA did the split order.