Delta Flight Attendants set to Vote!

[Nor'Easta]

And here I thought you were going to explain to me what a SCAB is.

What a disappointment.
:down:

As you said above in an earlier post "I'm NOT WORTHY." Why should I waste my time on you when you're "not worthy."

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I writing this even though I know I will get flamed.
However I must say after much research on my own, as I stated on these boards before,
It is a choice between the lesser of two evils. I must say,at this point, with the ballots
on their way, I will most likely rip mine up. Luke I am sure your not surpised.
I know I will have detractors out there calling
me all sorts of names as some on here like to do (N'or Easta) Your VENOM sure doesn't win over
much confidence. Why do you care what I do as a Delta F/A anyway? There are a few voices
on here that I do respect. i.e. Luke, and NxNW. I do appreciate your information and time.
I have looked at both Delta and the AFA messages that are sent out and somewhere in between
I try to find the truth. I have talked to other F/A's at other carriers and I realized the grass isn't always
greener. I like the fact that there isn't a reserve at Delta. I like the fact that I can drop to zero hours or fly
as much as I want. I like the fact that we have productive trips. I like that fact that we work well with other department for a common goal. Our Customers.
History is important to me. For the past 19 years Delta has treated me
fairly. Yes I was quite angry with the recent treatment during BK. But what carrier in BK didn't cut pay?
Overall Delta has treated me and my fellow F/A's quite fair. Is it perfect? No, but as a group we work together for positive change.
There isn't an US vs THEM attitude at Delta, and I would like to keep it that way. Especially after reading this board and the hate from several posters. I don't need to be apart of that. Again we have been treated well for my 19 years here at Delta. I know many of you can't understand the work environment of a non union force. There is a cultural difference at Delta and there is a reason why Delta has been non union for this long.
emotions aside, the fact that Delta has kept their past promises of give backs, even though oil is over $100 a barrel. The fact is that we didn't need a union to get this back. The fact is that they are offering severance to
F/A's even though they don't need any Flight attendants to take it. This says a lot. So while your Union works well for you at your respective carriers, I feel that the non Union status at Delta is best for me.
What I don't understand is why many "outsiders" don't respect Delta's Flight Attendants decision to remain Union free for what? 68 years. Again, the easy thing would be to call me names, or call me a Management "plant".
That would be the easy thing to do, instead of asking yourselves why do many Delta f/a feel this way.
This is how I feel. Again I must say the VENOM on here from those who are pro union worried about what Delta F/A's do is a real turn off. Your constructive comments will be thoughtfully read.

Booy--
There are so many issues to address in your posting that as I type this I don't know if I have the energy to address them all. (Just got off of a long flying week.) And a warning to those who choose to read. My post gets a little into the weeds ,as it were, so you may want to skip to the next one.
First of all, you are correct. I am not surprised in the least by your "decision." The reason I put it in quotes is I think, Booy, if you're really, really honest with yourself you know you were coming from a sort of prejudicial background (ie: non open mind) when you began your research into AFA vs. Going it alone w/ Delta. But I will say this, at least you did some research. That is a LOT more than many of your counterparts did. So from that standpoint, good for you. And also good for you that you have gone 19 years and not had a mishap or an experience which opened your eyes to some of the pitfalls of having nothing in writing. You're very lucky. I really hope your 'luck' continues esp. if more people, like you, rip up their ballots.
You write in your post that others on this board don't understand "the work environment of a nonunion force." Well, Booy..I DO. I have flown for Delta for pushing 30 years..original Delta, not from another airline. I understand what it's like when a friend is called into the Base Mgr's office and presumed guilty until proven innocent (rather than the other way around.) and when called on this, the Mgr. tells the FA, "this is NOT the USA, this is my office and this is Delta!" (And of course she was alone because one is not permitted to bring anyone else in for disciplinary meetings.)
I know what it's like to get a call late at night (9 years ago) from a hysterical FA who was wrongfully terminated for having a drug test come back as "not consistent with human urine." This was a woman with an ill husband who desperately needed her health insurance. Over a year later she (and others like her) were reinstated. Do you know why? I think you do. Because the very same test results came back on a pilot and ALPA and their team of attorneys went to the Kansas testing sight and found grave inconsistencies and problems with their labaratory.
Remember, however, that until it happened to the pilot, Sharon Wibben said she had complete faith in the testing center. If it hadn't happened to this pilot and ALPA investigated, this woman and as many as 9 others would not only have lost their jobs, but had their reputations questioned, if not ruined by this debaucle.
I have another observation to make about your prejudice. It comes in the form of your saying " I like the fact that there isn't a reserve at Delta." Booy, who are you kidding? Just yourself, I think. You know we have the infamous ADays. You also know if there is nothing on Open Time to pick up that you are a reserve, by the phone, waiting for Sched. to call. Sure, it's not a full month. But because it's 3days they had to go up, up, up the ladder.(29 years in some sr. bases). These foks,who were off reserve for 20 years are now serving A days. People who many years ago moved away from the 3hr call out areas, now pay hotel fees to be "within range." So please, from this standpoint, let's have an HONEST discussion.
You say you like the fact we have "productive trips." Again, Booy, for whom? for YOU, for people in YOUR base at YOUR seniority? (Are you noting a little bit of my pointing out a Self-Serving attitude here?) I don't call a 3 day trip worth 11 or 12 hours productive. And they still exist. This is because DL does not really have a 4:45/day trip average. It is a daily average under certain conditions. This was addressed on the AFA organizing site. You may have missed it.
Now let's address DL's keeping their promises of"givebacks." Remember as the Bible says, he that gives can also take. You are speaking very prematurely. We are in the beginning days of this oil crisis. And what "promises" are you talking about? Never have I read where DL promised they wouldn't come back to us for more money. DL does not make "promises" to its employees. (Again, I note your prejudice by the language you use.) If this were so, then they wouldn't have called off the pay return (not increase) scheduled for July 1.
And finally, because this is getting way too long, let's address the severance package. Do you think DL is offering this just out of the kindness of their hearts? Is this not a business? Is this not a business where the stock has plummeted over 60% since we came out of BK??
Booy, do a LITTLE BIT of thinking on your own. Even Inflite Mgrs have said if a lot of FAs take the package, they will indeed open up the traning center again and replace that base line they need (after the planes are parked) with...yes! New Hires! Why? Simple math, my boy.
Take a look at their starting pay. That's all I need to say on that.
Finally, I don't think you're a management plant and wouldn't care that much frankly if you were. You know, the term "Koolaide" is thrown around a lot here to the point that people don't really remember its roots with Jim Jones in Africa. His followers were so committed to him that they took their very lives to the exclusion of anything else in the outside world, to any rationality or anything that showed that they should question what they were doing. The reason it's used here is because that's how people like you come across, Booy. I've pointed out your half-truths and prejudicial statements. THAT's why someone like Nor'Easta is going to post the big ol' Koolaid Punchbowl guy probably. Not saying the tactic is right but you must understand why it is you leave yourself open to these types of posters.
I'm done now. Rip your ballot up. I hppe you do it with fervor and relish. Remember when you rip it up that the former base mgr of PDX, who worked against us having AFA back in 2001/02 now supports us. Remember when ripping it up that Duff O'Dell, former Inflite Regional Director, as part of Delta Air Lines Retirement Committee (DALRC...they have a website, you may want to look at it.) has signed onto a letter they presented to Congress on Mar. 5th that states "we can no longer trust Delta Mgt. to do the right thing" and they petitioned to have their retirement benefits in writing. Unless Congress acts, it's too late for them. It's not too late for us......unless you "give it a rip."

 

[North by Northwest]

Luke, thank you for the informative post. I read every word. One thing in particular that I found interesting is:
"I understand what it's like when a friend is called into the Base Mgr's office and presumed guilty until proven innocent (rather than the other way around.) and when called on this, the Mgr. tells the FA, "this is NOT the USA, this is my office and this is Delta!" (And of course she was alone because one is not permitted to bring anyone else in for disciplinary meetings.)"

Delta clearly does this in order to prevent WRONGFUL TERMINATION lawsuits. If there is no third party witness it becomes "hearsay" in a court of law.

Good luck on the vote. I have NO DOUBT that Delta FAs will step up and take control of their futures.

Bababoy (@19 yrs), it is unlikely that this merger will pass, in the event it does and you do not have a Union, it will go to arbitration, and under "fair and equitable, you will get less than DOH" just ask Delta pilots. Luke, @30 yrs has nothing to worry about either way, but you do. So, I would hold on to that ballot for a few days before tearing it up.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Luke, thank you for the informative post. I read every word. One thing in particular that I found interesting is:
"I understand what it's like when a friend is called into the Base Mgr's office and presumed guilty until proven innocent (rather than the other way around.) and when called on this, the Mgr. tells the FA, "this is NOT the USA, this is my office and this is Delta!" (And of course she was alone because one is not permitted to bring anyone else in for disciplinary meetings.)"

Delta clearly does this in order to prevent WRONGFUL TERMINATION lawsuits. If there is no third party witness it becomes "hearsay" in a court of law.

Right on the money, as usual, North! You are, as they might say in Spanglish, correctemundo.

 

[DLSam]

Luke, thank you for the informative post. I read every word. One thing in particular that I found interesting is:
"I understand what it's like when a friend is called into the Base Mgr's office and presumed guilty until proven innocent (rather than the other way around.) and when called on this, the Mgr. tells the FA, "this is NOT the USA, this is my office and this is Delta!" (And of course she was alone because one is not permitted to bring anyone else in for disciplinary meetings.)"

Delta clearly does this in order to prevent WRONGFUL TERMINATION lawsuits. If there is no third party witness it becomes "hearsay" in a court of law.

Good luck on the vote. I have NO DOUBT that Delta FAs will step up and take control of their futures.

Bababoy (@19 yrs), it is unlikely that this merger will pass, in the event it does and you do not have a Union, it will go to arbitration, and under "fair and equitable, you will get less than DOH" just ask Delta pilots. Luke, @30 yrs has nothing to worry about either way, but you do. So, I would hold on to that ballot for a few days before tearing it up.

NXNW,

I am still struggling to understand why DOH would be the best thing for DL f/a's and where does is say under "fair and equitable" that DL f/a's WILL get less than DOH?

Take for instance, the #1 f/a at Delta..what if NW(for example) has 10 more people senior to the DL f/a? DOH would be swell for NW, but the #1 at DL is going to be mighty pissed!! I don't know about your senior f/a's but some of ours seem to be playing the game of survivor..outwit, outplay and esp outlast!

I have 10yrs at DL and was recently informed by a afa supporter with access to the NW seniority list that based on DOH that I would have over 6800 NW f/a's above me and only about 1000 below me. Ouch!! My point is that both Sr and Jr f/a's could be effected by DOH. On both sides!

As is stands right now, in the event of a merger, because of our non-union status we get to go to the table with both options..DOH and fair/equitable. DOH cannot be forced upon us. It also doesn't have to go to arbitration..we have the opportunity to negotiate, and after looking over each others seniority lists could very well decide that DOH works for both sides. If it does go to arbitration, then just like the LCC decision, it is possible that one side will be happier and one side will be pissed.

However, and not to miminize our contributions, but to compare us to the pilots situation is like comparing apples and oranges. Like most f/a's, we fly every aircraft and our pay (for the largest part) is only effected by the amount of years we have flown. While things like int'l flying/holidays/weekends off could be effected, either DOH or "fair and equitable" is going to change that for some.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

NXNW,

As is stands right now, in the event of a merger, because of our non-union status we get to go to the table with both options..DOH and fair/equitable. DOH cannot be forced upon us. It also doesn't have to go to arbitration..we have the opportunity to negotiate, and after looking over each others seniority lists could very well decide that DOH works for both sides. If it does go to arbitration, then just like the LCC decision, it is possible that one side will be happier and one side will be pissed.

DLSam, what world are you living in? I'm sorry but ANYTHING can be forced upon us here at DL. I'm not saying it will be but you give yourself much, too much power. You said above "We have the power to negotiate..." You have ABSOLUTELY NO POWER, NONE to negotiate anything. Period. Where you get this stuff from I do not know. That's why many of your fellow DL FAs, AFA activists (not Pat Friend, not some anonymous, mysterioso "Third Party") have lobbied for and worked tirelessly for the right to negotiate by having union representation.
You and Booy need to face facts. You have NO legally, recognizable power whatsoever. For your own good, stop living in this dreamworld that you've created for yourself.

 

[Nor'Easta]

I am still struggling to understand why DOH would be the best thing for DL f/a's and where does is say under "fair and equitable" that DL f/a's WILL get less than DOH?

You will not get it if you merge with NW. The Northwest/AFA contract has seniority protection for DOH in it. The Delta f/a's have nothing to protect their seniority, period.

 

[North by Northwest]

Coming from one of the strongest Union in aviation...APFA walks the walk, I luv'em because they WILL take it to the STREETS! (in a heart beat)

You get nothing in this country without a fight.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

..we have the opportunity to negotiate,

"....we have the opportunity to negotiate"

Where have you been for the last 7 years, in a cave?

"opportunity to negotiate".

 

[Danny Campbell]

BABABOOY:

First, I promise not to "flame you" <wink>.

Over the past year, I've been working directly with the 1,239 Delta FAs that are considered "activists" in the Delta/AFA campaign. Naturally, I've come to have a deep respect for all Delta FAs and I've become quite familiar with your current (and past) economic standing, scheduling practices and many other elements of your job as a Delta FA.

I will simply provide you with the following 'contrasts' that I personally believe you deserve at Delta, that don't appear on the comparisons that Delta's anti-union firm has put out to you all...

* As of Dec 2007, Delta has the 'lowest' FA unit costs of all major airlines. What that means is that total overall compensation, benefits, productivity, etc... for Delta FAs is less than any other legacy carrier in the country.

* More than 1/2 of the items on Delta's comparison list to you are either FALSE or grossly misleading. On another blog, I posted these discrepancies.

* The most glaring loss that Delta FAs have suffered in your 'non-union status' (in my opinion) is that you received no EQUITY CLAIM for any of the cuts you have taken. In other words, because you were not viewed as an 'unsecured creditor', you had not cash value claim in bankruptcy. We, the NWA FAs, for example received 15,000 last year as part of a claim for the actual concessions we took. When you talk to Delta pilots, they will tell you that they received an Equity Claim that provided nearly 150k when you emerged from bk. Unless you have a union, you will never recoup those losses.

* Like the Equity Claim above, when AFA negotiated last year’s early out plan at NWA, we, the remaining 7,500 FAs who did not leave NW received more than 16 million of the cost savings generated by the plan. Each FA got more than $2,200 paid last year and an additional $160 last month. Under your plan, existing Delta FAs stand to get $0.00.

* You wrote "I like the fact that there isn't a reserve at Delta." - then why would joining AFA change that? Remember, YOU negotiate your own contract - not somebody from the outside

* You wrote "I like the fact that I can drop to zero hours or fly as much as I want.". So can we at NWA, so why does that have anything to do with your decision? The difference is, that at NWA, we can drop to ZERO and not worry that our benefits will be affected. They won't (in our contract)....but they are at Delta.

* You wrote "I like the fact that we have productive trips." Actually, because your duty and trip rigs are the worst of all legacy carriers, your trips are also the most unproductive.

* You wrote "I like that fact that we work well with other department for a common goal. Our Customers." That doesn't change when you are an AFA member. In fact, you have more opportunity to 'define' goals when you belong to AFA.

* You wrote "For the past 19 years Delta has treated me fairly." I think it is great that Delta has a good reputation for treating FAs fairly, but is having a legal contract really a 'referendum' on how fair management is? If that is the litmus test for how "fair" the company is, then why do ALL of the executive management have their own legal contract? Richard Anderson has a GREAT contract. Why does he insist on having one?

* You wrote "But what carrier in BK didn't cut pay?" - Great question...but the real question is which airline cut pay the DEEPEST and the answer is Delta Air Lines. And, the following up question might be; What carrier got away with paying no Equity Claim for the deepest cuts in the industry?

* You wrote "There isn't an US vs THEM attitude at Delta, and I would like to keep it that way." Why would having a seat at the "grown ups table" change that? I don't think you will ever have REAL RESPECT as long as you sit at the 'kids table' and have to be served by a "MEMO" telling you what your pay, benefits and working conditions will be. Is that really a mature and professional relationship? I realize some think it is -- but eventually, I think we all know (at our core) that it is flawed.

In closing, I think everyone needs to remember that ALL airlines care about one thing right now. PROFIT ! The anti-union campaign waged by Delta is not about relationships, its not about fairness and its certainly not about 'protecting FAs'. It's about MONEY. I was comparing financial records with Delta FAs and I was asked what I filed for taxes last year. In every case, I made more than 10k - 15k than a Delta activist. When they couldn't figure out why, I kept going back to the same thing: WE GOT EQUITY FOR OUR CONCESSIONS and we got CASH BACK for our AFA negotiated Early Out Plan. Then, I was asked what my last profit sharing check was - I told them it was 1,500 AFTER taxes. Most DL FAs I talked to said they got 750. Again, it's about $$$.

In closing, I hope you will take the time to read the weekly newsletters online and make your decision on some of these facts.

Warm Regards,

Danny Campbell, NWA FA
[email protected]

 

[Danny Campbell]

P.S. Oh, the weekly newsletters can be found HERE; http://www.deltaafa.org/default.asp?nc=6478&id=47

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Danny--On behalf of DL FAs, THANK YOU so very much for being a voice of reason and clarity on these message boards. I try but I'm not really very good at lining up the major points in a way that is so clear and concise as you can do.
Again, for those of us here at DL who are working toward a pro-AFA, pro-Delta environment, thanks again!

Also, from these boards Bababooy seems like a rational, nice guy/gal. Although caught up in Delta's obfucation about all things union, I think he/she will read your comments and hopefully, take them to heart.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Luke:

Thank you. To be very sincere with you, I have not (yet) met a single Delta FA that has been anything less than a "nice guy or gal". It has been an amazing honor working with you all and I hope you DO succeed in your campaign for more reasons than the obvious.

One thing that I [selfishly] want is for the Delta FAs to bring your unique traits to AFA. You see, joining AFA doesn't just change your lives, it also changes AFA in ways that most of you probably don't consider. I believe Delta FAs have an interesting 'sensibility' and a charm that is unique to your airline. If you join AFA, you will be the 2nd largest group in the 55,000 member organization and AFA becomes "Delta FAs" every bit as much as Delta FAs become AFA. I know that sounds a little corny - but trust me <wink> - I've been around politics enough to know it would be a good thing all around.

When we (NWA) joined AFA, we brought our deep commitment to mobilization and 'feisty' element that many in AFA had not seen in a while and so it changed some of AFA's views on contract campaigns and other issues. The same is bound to happen when Delta FAs join.

Anyway, Bababooy is welcome to email or call me ANYTIME - I'd love to listen to any concerns he/she may have. My email is [email protected] and my number is 248-232-2985.

P.S. Luke Skywalker was my childhood idol! I'm a total Star Wars generation nerd!

Danny

 

[Nor'Easta]

Coming from one of the strongest Union in aviation...APFA walks the walk, I luv'em because they WILL take it to the STREETS! (in a heart beat)

You get nothing in this country without a fight.

We will do it again, if it comes to that!!

 

[BABABOOY]

Danny--On behalf of DL FAs, THANK YOU so very much for being a voice of reason and clarity on these message boards. I try but I'm not really very good at lining up the major points in a way that is so clear and concise as you can do.
Again, for those of us here at DL who are working toward a pro-AFA, pro-Delta environment, thanks again!

Also, from these boards Bababooy seems like a rational, nice guy/gal. Although caught up in Delta's obfucation about all things union, I think he/she will read your comments and hopefully, take them to heart.

And I have......to be brief, both your's and Danny's thought-out statements gave me more insight. For
one, I will take NXNW suggestion and NOT rip up my ballot. Its obvious (because its 430am) that this
issue is now affecting my sleep. Both of you gave me great reason to pause. Luke, your examples of
past "atrocities" especially Yasko's (sp) situation in PDX was a great reminder of the ugly side of Delta.
Again I would like to thank you both. I will post more at a later date, however for now, I need to get some sleep.