Delta FAs File For AFA-CWA Election !

[BABABOOY]

North by Northwest,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all this.
It is appreaciated.
Last numbers I heard were NW F/A's 8500 and Delta has 13500.
Is this number correct regarding NW ?

 

[North by Northwest]

I believe it is more like 8200 to 12000 (maybe 12500)

NW is very top heavy...6500 and up is 10 to 57 years (we just had 600 between 25 and 55 years take early outs).

I think they are making a VERY big mistake if they do the Delta name and HQ (so you may not have to worry about seniority, it won't happen)...these people are fiercely proud of Northwest, it will fail. If you think you saw Delta rally in opposition to US. You will see a Nuclear blast from the North over the Northwest name and history. If the news reports are true, Anderson and Steenland have grossly underestimated their own backyard and have over played their hand. Lawyers should be banned from running airlines, they just don't get it. Lawyers running customer service businesses is like oil and water.

After all, "NORTHWEST" is the last original International American Flag carrier left, the oldest across the Pacific...and with 16 747-400s, 32 brand new A330s, 68 787 Dreamliners enroute, we've got the world by the tail.

I think we have a longggg way to go before this is over...even after it is announced.

All the best!

 

[DLSam]

North by Northwest,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all this.
It is appreaciated.
Last numbers I heard were NW F/A's 8500 and Delta has 13500.
Is this number correct regarding NW ?

The DL f/a numbers are over 14,000...should be over 15,000-16,000+ by the end of the summer. In 2000, we had around 20,000 f/a's, lost quite a few due to various voluntary leave programs after 9-11 and went down to about 13,000. Many of those f/a's on leave are now back online. We hired alot of f/a's last year and currently have 600 in training with 90 more starting classes every week until the summer period. DL has told us they need over 1700 more this year due to attrition and international expansion.

 

[DLSam]

BBB, it is important to understand how those deals when down in the past.

Western was a MUCH smaller carrier than Delta, Pan Am was ..well, I won't get into that. Suffice it to say because of the size of that part of PAA they were slotted in not by senority.

Here's the deal on the pending merger. Delta is not that much larger than Northwest. Federal Railroad Labor laws dictate that if a merger occurs (and this is a merger of equals hence the "stock swap" no matter what name goes on the plane) if one entity is Union or of a different Union (or NO Union as is Delta) all contracts prevail...until an election is held. An election (there may be an instance that requires 35% in favor of, such as what just happened at Delta with over 55% voting for an election).

Once it has been established that a Union representation is requested the Vote must be by 50% PLUS 1 for it to win. Based on that, NWA AFA plus the percentage of Delta FA who would vote in favor of...would guarantee a win for Union representation.

Now, on the senority issue. NWA AFA has scop language in their contract which must be adhered to by NWA and the resulting company of the combo. That guarantees our DOH on any senority list at a carrier operated by NW pilots or former NW pilots under a merged company.

Non Union Delta FA's have a promise and a legally NON binding piece of paper "promising" fair and equitable integration, that does not mean DOH. We are guaranteed nothing LESS...legally. That is not the case with a Non union carrier.

Pilots are Union at Delta for a reason...ask yourself, are they treated better than you? Do you have a voice in your future? Unions are not perfect...but trust me, the days of trusting airline corporate "families" are OVER!

I hope I have explain this correctly. If anyone sees a need for correction please jump in.


North by Northwest,

It is my understanding that because of the size of the DL f/a group, which has almost 6000 more f/a's than NW (conservative quess, not for sure how many members NW has) that union conditions from a merger partner cannot be imposed on them. Our non-union status is "imposed" on the partner until a over-all vote. If the over-all vote comes up in afa's favor, then its considered a new contract, which has to be negoiated with DL at that point.


Unless the NW f/a's and the DL f/a's both agree to DOH (which I don't believe we are inclined to do so at the moment) then by law Mohawk-allegheny takes over aka "fair and equitable". I'm not saying right now that "fair and equitable" will be the way that DL group goes but until we see a NW seniority list, its hard to make that judgement. If it turns out that there is a seniority inequity amongst major sections of the list (NW has more senior, DL has more jr, or vica versa) then there is no way that we'll go for DOH. Because we currently do not have a union, we do have a choice of which way we'll go. With afa, its DOH only..

All the best,
DLSam

 

[North by Northwest]

I was just guessing at the Delta numbers from the Press. I know what you mean about being chopped down...NW had 12,800. pre 9/11.

NW had every intention of whittling down our rank and file for a merger (in the hopes of sending us to Delta as a non union threat)...THAT will be an issue for Mr. Oberstar. So, you can pretty much guarantee that we will not be going NON UNION, if this deal is to proceed. The historical analysis will prove the intent of Steenland et al., many of these actions may be questionable under current law, particularly the use of Bankruptcy for Union busting (please see Railroad Labor Act). There are many angles being played out here...many with dirty little secrets. Like the plan to get rid of our 5,000 expert mechanics, some with 45 years of sen. It had nothing to do with saving the company. The question that will be asked, why did they allow a company to go into bankruptcy with over $1 Billion in cash, and assets that are now be valued at over $8-10 bilion (FFprogram alone).

Here's some info from our merger experts: NWAFA contact remains in place UNTIL an election.

Should Delta & Northwest officially announce a merger, the following things will likely happen:

1. AFA/NW Flight Attendant representatives should meet with DL/NW Company representatives to be sure that DL/NW continues to enforce our current Agreement (including Section 1-merger protocol/labor protective provisions [LPPs]). AFA should be securing a successor document immediately from DL/NW stating they will abide by the NW Flight Attendant Agreement; especially Section 1 and our LPP language.
Scope Information: Read more
Successorship Information: Read more
LPP Information: Read more.
2. AFA/NW Flight Attendant representatives should meet to discuss Fence and Trackage Agreements with DL/NW to protect NW flying from being flown on the DL side UNTIL a merged seniority list is issued by an arbitrator (there is no need for an arbitration if the DL Flight Attendant seniority committee and the NW Flight Attendant seniority committee reach an agreement which satisfies BOTH sides as to how the combined list should be integrated - however, this is a long shot). NW & DL Flight Attendants will select from their respective groups those that will represent them for the purpose of fair and equitable integration. How this process will work will depend on
1. AFA - should they win the representational election
-or-
2. DL management - should AFA lose the election.
3. AFA/NW Flight Attendant representatives should immediately request that all NW/DL Flight Attendants be trained on each other's equipment which is beneficial when a Trackage Agreement is reached. Trackage allows those routes which belonged to the carrier at the time of the merger to be flown by that group even if on each other's equipment. A NW/DL Flight Attendant cannot fly together until a merged list but we could fly each other's equipment on our own routes with DL/NW pilots. Remember it is the route that is protected, not the airplane.

 

[North by Northwest]

If the election results in a YES Vote, i.e., DL and NW Flight Attendants vote to have AFA as their union.

AFA is the union. Remember, the merger protocols mentioned above are still proceeding during the representational vote process.

* AFA/NW/DL Flight Attendant representatives continue to meet with DL/NW Company representatives to continue discussions regarding Fence and Trackage Agreements (as mentioned above), running the two operations separately UNTIL there is an integrated seniority list, and the discussion that both sides will work under their existing contracts until there is an integrated seniority list.
* AFA/NW Flight Attendant representatives meet to merge both the NW and DL contracts for all DL Flight Attendants (which now include the NW Flight Attendants). This process should take the best of both Agreements and combine them into ONE Agreement. Remember, both sides have good and bad things in their Agreement. We don't want to exclude any concept based on who has it. We need the BEST of BOTH.

If the election results in a NO Vote, i.e., DL and NW Flight Attendants vote no to having AFA as their union. There would be NO UNION

The process which started at the announcement of the merger (successor document/seniority integration by means of arbitration) will continue regardless of the outcome of the voting.

* DL/NW Flight Attendant representatives on seniority committees will continue to try to reach an acceptable Agreement by both sides to integrate the two seniority lists. If these seniority committees do not reach an acceptable integration process there will still be an arbitration over this issue because of the NW FLight Attendants contractual LPPs and the LPPs DL gave the DL Flight Attendants prior to the merger. Time limits for this integration process will be dictated by DL management.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

North by Northwest,

I think I speak on behalf of all pro-contract Delta FAs, THANK YOU so much for all of your investigative work and taking the time to post here with your findings. There is sooo much spin going on right now from DL management and unfortunately, DL FAs who choose not to question.
Your efforts are definitely appreciated. Thanks again and best to you.

 

[North by Northwest]

Luke (love that name...same as my 2 yr nephew


I am sure Dal management is in OVERDRIVE. The thought of having a 22,000 strong, Union on Delta property is scaring the daylights out of them...expect a HUGE raise soon! (sad that it takes the threat of a Union to issue one)

Delta FA should have a say as to what is happening to their company. They should be involved with THEIR company...this machine grinds to a halt with out all the wheels turning and Inflight is a primary wheel.

I am glad to share any of the little knowledge I have with all of you.

Remember...it is US...against THEM...until they respect you enough to invite you to the table. They will only do that when FORCED.

 

[Nor'Easta]

The Kool-Aid drinking Delta f/a's (like Aislehopper) will vote no when Delta shows them the $$$. Then they will get screwed when the seniority lists are joined because the NW f/a's have a CONTRACT with SENIORITY PROTECTION!

I'm looking forward to seeing the look on Aislehopper's face when this is all done.

 

[aislehopper]

[quote name='Nor'Easta' post='573254' date='Feb 16 2008, 03:30 PM']The Kool-Aid drinking Delta f/a's (like Aislehopper) will vote no when Delta shows them the $$$. Then they will get screwed when the seniority lists are joined because the NW f/a's have a CONTRACT with SENIORITY PROTECTION!

I'm looking forward to seeing the look on Aislehopper's face when this is all done. [/quote]

I find it interesting that instead of adding to a discussion, you go straight to personal attacks.

You consistently post under all of your different US Aviation aliases that Delta flight attendants need to unionize under the afa banner. At the same time, you have advocated from behind your current alias that the AA flight attendants switch to the Teamsters. This is at the very same time you ran for APFA office as a vice chair in one year and for domestic negotiator the next. On which side of the fence do you sit? APFA, AFA, Teamster?

I do not want my life and the lives of my coworkers dictated by officer wanna-be's that exhibit the same internal confusion about what they want and the same vindictive streak that you show on this forum to those who disagree with your point of view. If you are the face of union leadership, we are far better unrepresented.

As for the current election, the bonus checks have been deposited, half of the international pay is coming back, we can make time again, and a pay raise should be announced in the next few weeks. IMHO, this will make it hard for the afa to bring us home this time around. The afa's best weapon is merger fear, and I am not sure just how well it is capitalizing on it.

My crystal ball says that this will be a close election with the afa losing.

If NWA and DL combines, I agree with Luke, we will likely go afa. The only thing that could change that is if there is a general frustration with the afa leadership at NWA that causes people not to vote.

It should be an interesting few months.

 

[Nor'Easta]

I find it interesting that instead of adding to a discussion, you go straight to personal attacks.

On which side of the fence do you sit? APFA, AFA, Teamster?

My crystal ball says that this will be a close election with the afa losing.

1. And you don't? Ha!

2. The UNION side of the fence

3. Sure about that?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I find it interesting that instead of adding to a discussion, you go straight to personal attacks.

You consistently post under all of your different US Aviation aliases that Delta flight attendants need to unionize under the afa banner. At the same time, you have advocated from behind your current alias that the AA flight attendants switch to the Teamsters. This is at the very same time you ran for APFA office as a vice chair in one year and for domestic negotiator the next. On which side of the fence do you sit? APFA, AFA, Teamster?

I do not want my life and the lives of my coworkers dictated by officer wanna-be's that exhibit the same internal confusion about what they want and the same vindictive streak that you show on this forum to those who disagree with your point of view. If you are the face of union leadership, we are far better unrepresented.

As for the current election, the bonus checks have been deposited, half of the international pay is coming back, we can make time again, and a pay raise should be announced in the next few weeks. IMHO, this will make it hard for the afa to bring us home this time around. The afa's best weapon is merger fear, and I am not sure just how well it is capitalizing on it.

My crystal ball says that this will be a close election with the afa losing.

If NWA and DL combines, I agree with Luke, we will likely go afa. The only thing that could change that is if there is a general frustration with the afa leadership at NWA that causes people not to vote.

It should be an interesting few months.

Hi Aislehopper,
I've noticed you've been lurking and not posting. I admire your restraint but yet your silence is also telling. Some weeks ago I made a comparison list of DL vs. NW under another topic asking you and the others to comment but you did not. Perhaps you didn's see it.
It had to do with the massive differnces in Severance packages and Emergence awards between NW and DL.

Anyway, you say AFA should be capitalizing on merger fear. You also clearly point out that the carrots DL is now dangling (most people are not that excited about a $1 Int'l pay raise. That's $20 on an average Int'l trip, with taxes taken out $14..what will that buy against a Euro? A beer? a Coke?) is also a good tactic. This all seems to be a game to you. Well, it's not a game for me. I get the feeling you are not the primary "breadwinner" in your household. Maybe you are but your attitude appears to be very cavalier. You and I have had our differences over the years and I am going to try to be respectful, but I just can't get a handle on where you're coming from sometimes other than you want to remain union-free. Well, my dear, you just admitted yourself that if the merger goes through, that will be an impossibility. Do you think ALL of AFA's materials are lies? Don't you rec've them even just for information? If we vote yes now, we will go under their bylaws of date of hire even if our contract hasn't been completely ironed out. This is what I understand, but could be wrong. North by Northwest: are you reading? Can you offer any light on the subject? If you have the time, it is appreciated.
Aislehopper, I am willing to bury the hatchet and be civil but let's have a discussion on the merits and not on who is gaming who next, etc...
Let's operate from the point of casting this very important vote coming up. You're a smart person. I know you can see through the BS..on BOTH sides.

 

[Nor'Easta]

Hi Aislehopper,
I've noticed you've been lurking and not posting. I admire your restraint but yet your silence is also telling. Some weeks ago I made a comparison list of DL vs. NW under another topic asking you and the others to comment but you did not. Perhaps you didn's see it.
It had to do with the massive differnces in Severance packages and Emergence awards between NW and DL.

Anyway, you say AFA should be capitalizing on merger fear. You also clearly point out that the carrots DL is now dangling (most people are not that excited about a $1 Int'l pay raise. That's $20 on an average Int'l trip, with taxes taken out $14..what will that buy against a Euro? A beer? a Coke?) is also a good tactic. This all seems to be a game to you. Well, it's not a game for me. I get the feeling you are not the primary "breadwinner" in your household. Maybe you are but your attitude appears to be very cavalier. You and I have had our differences over the years and I am going to try to be respectful, but I just can't get a handle on where you're coming from sometimes other than you want to remain union-free. Well, my dear, you just admitted yourself that if the merger goes through, that will be an impossibility. Do you think ALL of AFA's materials are lies? Don't you rec've them even just for information? If we vote yes now, we will go under their bylaws of date of hire even if our contract hasn't been completely ironed out. This is what I understand, but could be wrong. North by Northwest: are you reading? Can you offer any light on the subject? If you have the time, it is appreciated.
Aislehopper, I am willing to bury the hatchet and be civil but let's have a discussion on the merits and not on who is gaming who next, etc...
Let's operate from the point of casting this very important vote coming up. You're a smart person. I know you can see through the BS..on BOTH sides.

Aislehopper, can't be civil. Remember she drinks to much Delta-Aid to see the difference between good and bad.

 

[North by Northwest]

I find it interesting that instead of adding to a discussion, you go straight to personal attacks.

You consistently post under all of your different US Aviation aliases that Delta flight attendants need to unionize under the afa banner. At the same time, you have advocated from behind your current alias that the AA flight attendants switch to the Teamsters. This is at the very same time you ran for APFA office as a vice chair in one year and for domestic negotiator the next. On which side of the fence do you sit? APFA, AFA, Teamster?

I do not want my life and the lives of my coworkers dictated by officer wanna-be's that exhibit the same internal confusion about what they want and the same vindictive streak that you show on this forum to those who disagree with your point of view. If you are the face of union leadership, we are far better unrepresented.

As for the current election, the bonus checks have been deposited, half of the international pay is coming back, we can make time again, and a pay raise should be announced in the next few weeks. IMHO, this will make it hard for the afa to bring us home this time around. The afa's best weapon is merger fear, and I am not sure just how well it is capitalizing on it.

My crystal ball says that this will be a close election with the afa losing.

If NWA and DL combines, I agree with Luke, we will likely go afa. The only thing that could change that is if there is a general frustration with the afa leadership at NWA that causes people not to vote.

It should be an interesting few months.

With out a Union YOU have a VERY large possibility (ala Pan Am) of being slotted...RING a Bell, Ding aling?

We are nice people..Don't blame us if we come out ON TOP!

 

[North by Northwest]

Hi Aislehopper,
I've noticed you've been lurking and not posting. I admire your restraint but yet your silence is also telling. Some weeks ago I made a comparison list of DL vs. NW under another topic asking you and the others to comment but you did not. Perhaps you didn's see it.
It had to do with the massive differnces in Severance packages and Emergence awards between NW and DL.

Anyway, you say AFA should be capitalizing on merger fear. You also clearly point out that the carrots DL is now dangling (most people are not that excited about a $1 Int'l pay raise. That's $20 on an average Int'l trip, with taxes taken out $14..what will that buy against a Euro? A beer? a Coke?) is also a good tactic. This all seems to be a game to you. Well, it's not a game for me. I get the feeling you are not the primary "breadwinner" in your household. Maybe you are but your attitude appears to be very cavalier. You and I have had our differences over the years and I am going to try to be respectful, but I just can't get a handle on where you're coming from sometimes other than you want to remain union-free. Well, my dear, you just admitted yourself that if the merger goes through, that will be an impossibility. Do you think ALL of AFA's materials are lies? Don't you rec've them even just for information? If we vote yes now, we will go under their bylaws of date of hire even if our contract hasn't been completely ironed out. This is what I understand, but could be wrong. North by Northwest: are you reading? Can you offer any light on the subject? If you have the time, it is appreciated.
Aislehopper, I am willing to bury the hatchet and be civil but let's have a discussion on the merits and not on who is gaming who next, etc...
Let's operate from the point of casting this very important vote coming up. You're a smart person. I know you can see through the BS..on BOTH sides.

Luke is CORRECT......

Grow up! Control your future!

We will not hesitate ........if the arbitratater says NW 3- 1 DWL..

We may very well DEMAND value of enterprise...for top spot.(based on NON UNION)

Do not be played.