AFA at Delta goes down in flames...

[aislehopper]

Let's put this to rest.

JimnTX: Can you provide any insight into why several AA f/a's have visited the Delta board since this election was announced and have clearly laid out their distaste for AFA? Is there a particular circumstance that promped this..did AFA do something to upset some of your group? Is it just that you guys don't like unions that aren't In-House? I'm just mystified by it.

Luke:

Here is my guess why some AA flight attendants do not like the afa.

In the early 1990's, the afa was planning to raid APFA. On the afa website, there was a petition or something like that to garner AA F/A support for the afa. When APFA got that contract in the early 1990's, the afa went away.

With the afa's goal to represent all flight attendants, AA flight attendants will eventually be in the sights of the afa.

If Delta stays non union, it will always be the first target. If Delta goes afa, AA will be the next target.

 

[NYCJetCharter]

I guess I automatically assumed all f/a's had a union, but now that I'm an informed consumer...I hope they get the benefits they need. It's so much more than coffee and headsets to me, those f/a's are trained for emergencies.

 

[FA Mikey]

Why wouldn't THIS be a place to discuss it? After all, the subject matter is FA unions.

We should try to stay on subject. Discussing the afa delta election.

Sounds like you are more of a proponent of your In-house union.

My feelings are the intrests of the delta FA's would be better served with an independent union.

I mean, if you don't want to discuss the benefits of APFA/an inhouse union over AFA, then you're just posting on here as..what?...a warning to Delta FAs about AFA?

pretty much

I just don't see members of other FA unions coming on message boards and trashing one union without talking up the benefits of their own. I mean, if you can't quickly name a few benefits of having APFA over AFA , then why not speak out against all unions?

Because it is a choice. Plus all unions are not afa. I dont have it out for all unions. But in this case delta fa's sending millions of dollars to afa-cwa for what they get in return. Its a no brainer.

 

[FA Mikey]

Luke:

Here is my guess why some AA flight attendants do not like the afa.

In the early 1990's, the afa was planning to raid APFA. On the afa website, there was a petition or something like that to garner AA F/A support for the afa. When APFA got that contract in the early 1990's, the afa went away.

With the afa's goal to represent all flight attendants, AA flight attendants will eventually be in the sights of the afa.

If Delta stays non union, it will always be the first target. If Delta goes afa, AA will be the next target.

That could be true, although most people dont recall or remember anything about a raid other than the galley talk, and how having a larger union would net us a larger raise. I doubt very much that afa could get anything more than a handful of people willing to subscribe to their propaganda. They talk a good game, but have nothing substantive to back it up.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

We should try to stay on subject. Discussing the afa delta election.

My feelings are the intrests of the delta FA's would be better served with an independent union.

pretty much

Because it is a choice. Plus all unions are not afa. I dont have it out for all unions. But in this case delta fa's sending millions of dollars to afa-cwa for what they get in return. Its a no brainer.

Have the millions your members have sent in to APFA been worth the return on their investment, so-to-speak?
I know you still have your FAE pension for now (which is a great thing). I'm really not asking this to stir the pot; I'm trying to learn about Independent FA unions. If aislehopper's prediction is true that when NW comes over, they may want to decertify AFA and then start an in-house with Delta FAs, then I'm just trying to see the advantages.
Thanks.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Everyone: Wow ! Lots of false statements on here since the last time I visited. Where to begin?

1. Whoever wrote that AFA spent 5m on the campaign is flat-wrong. First, AFA didn't spend anything on the campaign -- nor did our AFA dues dollars fund the campaign. The campaign was funded by the CWA Organizing Department and because 99% of the work was done by "Delta FA volunteers", the costs were not nearly what they were the last time.

2. NWA FAs are NOT going back to an 'independant' union. That's what we had with PFAA -- and in fact, that's the organization that agreed (without a fight) to the 195m (annual) concessions and five year duration of our current contract. AFA was elected AFTER this amount and duration was agreed to. Furthermore, we aren't going back to a union where the local and national leaders are paid 30 - 45 % more than what they would earn on line as a FA. That is my biggest complaint with APFA, PFAA and many other independant unions. People accept union positions for $$$ instead of passion for change.

3. Yes, it is true that the NMB and Delta argued to "keep" a dead Delta FA as an eligible voter (Delta even admitted that she died in February). And, yes, this dead FA counted towards the final vote. Obviously, this shows how complicit the NMB and Delta execs were in padding the list in every way possible. In fact, if you add the 1,100 FAs on long-term furloughs with the 821 FAs that took the early out (both groups have little to no employer-employee relationship with Delta), what you get is an additional 1,900 people padded onto the eligibility roster. So, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to say that the Delta FAs (that actually WORK AT DELTA) won their election. Removing the 1,900 from the roster (oh...and the dead lady) would have offset the mere 1,300 votes short of the 50% plus one. Congrads, Delta FAs !!!

4. Finally, AFA wouldn't "raid" the AA FAs. AFA doesn't go out knocking on doors to drum up membership. Like somebody accurately stated here, all organizing campaigns are based on the pleas from FAs that want to join AFA. I speak from experience when I say this -- because when we first requested AFA's help with an organizing campaign in Sept 2005, we were asked to establish (first) whether we thought there was adequate support for the campaign. Obviously, there was -- we won the campaign.

 

[FA Mikey]

Have the millions your members have sent in to APFA been worth the return on their investment, so-to-speak?
I know you still have your FAE pension for now (which is a great thing). I'm really not asking this to stir the pot; I'm trying to learn about Independent FA unions. If aislehopper's prediction is true that when NW comes over, they may want to decertify AFA and then start an in-house with Delta FAs, then I'm just trying to see the advantages.
Thanks.

Simply put, every penny paid in is a penny paid to the interests of our group. Our leaders represent our interests, no one is side tracked by the goings on of another carrier.


I really dont see a concerted effort to decertify afa, in a combined carrier. Although, It may happen by a lack of votes in an election for representation. If I was a delta FA, I would be polling and trying to find out what it would take. Would more people be involved, participate or show interest if it were and independent VS a large international. If it was another union. The 64,000 dollar question, is the problem afa or something else?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Everyone: Wow ! Lots of false statements on here since the last time I visited. Where to begin?

1. Whoever wrote that AFA spent 5m on the campaign is flat-wrong. First, AFA didn't spend anything on the campaign -- nor did our AFA dues dollars fund the campaign. The campaign was funded by the CWA Organizing Department and because 99% of the work was done by "Delta FA volunteers", the costs were not nearly what they were the last time.

2. NWA FAs are NOT going back to an 'independant' union. That's what we had with PFAA -- and in fact, that's the organization that agreed (without a fight) to the 195m (annual) concessions and five year duration of our current contract. AFA was elected AFTER this amount and duration was agreed to. Furthermore, we aren't going back to a union where the local and national leaders are paid 30 - 45 % more than what they would earn on line as a FA. That is my biggest complaint with APFA, PFAA and many other independant unions. People accept union positions for $$$ instead of passion for change.

3. Yes, it is true that the NMB and Delta argued to "keep" a dead Delta FA as an eligible voter (Delta even admitted that she died in February). And, yes, this dead FA counted towards the final vote. Obviously, this shows how complicit the NMB and Delta execs were in padding the list in every way possible. In fact, if you add the 1,100 FAs on long-term furloughs with the 821 FAs that took the early out (both groups have little to no employer-employee relationship with Delta), what you get is an additional 1,900 people padded onto the eligibility roster. So, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to say that the Delta FAs (that actually WORK AT DELTA) won their election. Removing the 1,900 from the roster (oh...and the dead lady) would have offset the mere 1,300 votes short of the 50% plus one. Congrads, Delta FAs !!!

4. Finally, AFA wouldn't "raid" the AA FAs. AFA doesn't go out knocking on doors to drum up membership. Like somebody accurately stated here, all organizing campaigns are based on the pleas from FAs that want to join AFA. I speak from experience when I say this -- because when we first requested AFA's help with an organizing campaign in Sept 2005, we were asked to establish (first) whether we thought there was adequate support for the campaign. Obviously, there was -- we won the campaign.

Good to see you back, Danny.
About pt#3 above....I agree with you about the 1100 who are on long-term "furlough". I would venture to say that the majority of them did not vote because the majority have a new life in another capacity as most have been gone anywhere from 2-5 years. However, in my base, many of the early-outers voted in favor of AFA representation.
As far as the NMB is concerned, if a Dem is elected Pres, will they appoint 3 new people? I know that the 3 in there now are Republicans if memory serves me correctly and one, in particular, has a very pro-corporation bent.
If you look back, BOTH Delta elections took place under GW Bush's presidency. Do you think the NMB will be composed of different members should Obama win? (During our next vote with you guys). Wouldn't Dem-appointed NMB members be, naturally, more sympathetic to the union over the company? I know AFA said in their press release that they are going to file charges of interference by June 6. With this Bush-appointed NMB, I'm sure they will side with the corporation--Delta. If the charges have merits, I don't think they will do anything about it. Thoughts?

 

[700UW]

FA Mikey,

No response about the APFA, hmm interesting......

 

[Cajun Flyer]

AMEN! I am soooo sick of this guy's pathetic, angry whining. Has a sad, sad life and is clearly a miserable person to the nth degree.

AND, talk about a spin! The 60% is NOT accurate. It is not a yes/no vote, so it is not a true statement to say that 60% voted NO. Many didn't vote. AND, true to the Bush administration's pro-####, anti-labor stances, the NMB allowed Delta to keep some names on the active list that were DECEASED.

Understand this Delta anti-union FAs -- you WILL have a union in the very near future. NWA FAs may not all be 100% satisfied with AFA-CWA, but you can bet your job that the NWA FA group will vote to have a union over not having one, especially with evil people at Delta who think NWAers should be stapled.

Your day will come. Meanwhile, as the industry plummets, you may enjoy no bargaining power and have your pay slashed and quality of life deteriorate with no representation. I am sure you are really enjoying your 2.5 hours a day of vacation as it is.

I find this post funny, atcually. You're calling this guy miserable but here you are ranting about him and you don't know a thing about him or his life. Personal attacks are really not appropriate in this situation. People have different opinions and we may all disagree about unionization or in particular, AFA in this case, but to attack someone personally shows a lack of respect for other people, period.

60% of Delta F/A's chose not to vote for the AFA. If any of those 60% wanted AFA representation they had an easy telephone call or internet site at which they could vote for FIVE weeks. Not like they missed a 2 hour window! So 60% is completely accurate as to the amount of Delta F/A's who said NO to the AFA.

As far as "Evil people" at Delta who want NWA people stapled, I haven't come across anyone that I've spoken with who feels that way. I doubt the poster here who said that is even an F/A. The F/A's I've spoken with at Delta know that there will be an integration of seniority and are expecting that it will be as fair as possible. There are original Delta and original Western and PanAm people who feel that they got cheated in the seniority integrations and there are those who feel that it was fair. ALPA doesn't use DOH and I'd say they are the strongest of Airline unions. Delta F/A's don't want DOH as our route structure is much larger, our international flying is much greater and the seniority of Delta F/A's flying those routes is much more junior than those flying the best routes at NWA. With DOH, those people would lose those routes to people at NWA who cannot hold international currently and have never been able to hold it. How is that fair?

When the industry plummeted after September 11th, did your contract help you with pay cuts? Did the AFA save cuts at United and US Airways? Where was the "bargaining power" that you speak of then? Not only were their cuts deeper than most and still are, but they lost their pensions in that process as well. The cuts at Delta were no worse than the cuts at any carrier that is represented by the AFA. I don't think you understand that it's not been an us against them mentality at Delta like it is elsewhere. While there is always a push to get better wages and work rules for ourselves, we don't view all management as "evil" and trying to squeeze us at every moment of the day. For years, unions would aim to get wages up to Delta F/A pay rates. We were never at or near the bottom of the pay scale, we were nearly always at the top. Even after bankruptcy, we only trail Continental, American and Southwest who have not declared bankruptcy. So you can keep that "bargaining power" that's gotten your F/A's so much more than we "pathetic" creatures at Delta have.

 

[GSEMAN]

Sorry, I don't buy into government conspiracy theories. I am going by what the AFA leaders I know -- who were there -- are saying.

The list is public knowledge, and any one with a computer and a brain will see for themselves that some people are deceased. Further research would show that some people were terminated. Shady practices.

I am getting clarification on the yes/no thing. This is from the Railway Labor act that there will not be a NO option to voting. Weird. To say that 60% of the DAL FAs voted NO is absolutely false under basic rules of basic logic from Reasoning and Logic 101. I see your point, but I stand by that the claim that 60% voted NO is not accurate and is misleading information.

Did you get on your computer and look at the list? How many voters were deceased? Were any of them named Bernie?

 

[700UW]

FA Mikey,

Been days and no reply about the APFA and Ward?

Hmm......

 

[Strategizer]

At least they moved up from the paltry 17% they got last time to just at 40% this time. They are going in the right direction. With the NWA flight attendants, I'm sure they have enough to put it over the top.

 

[AIRBORN1]

Everyone: Wow ! Lots of false statements on here since the last time I visited. Where to begin?

1. Whoever wrote that AFA spent 5m on the campaign is flat-wrong. First, AFA didn't spend anything on the campaign -- nor did our AFA dues dollars fund the campaign. The campaign was funded by the CWA Organizing Department and because 99% of the work was done by "Delta FA volunteers", the costs were not nearly what they were the last time.

2. NWA FAs are NOT going back to an 'independant' union. That's what we had with PFAA -- and in fact, that's the organization that agreed (without a fight) to the 195m (annual) concessions and five year duration of our current contract. AFA was elected AFTER this amount and duration was agreed to. Furthermore, we aren't going back to a union where the local and national leaders are paid 30 - 45 % more than what they would earn on line as a FA. That is my biggest complaint with APFA, PFAA and many other independant unions. People accept union positions for $$$ instead of passion for change.

3. Yes, it is true that the NMB and Delta argued to "keep" a dead Delta FA as an eligible voter (Delta even admitted that she died in February). And, yes, this dead FA counted towards the final vote. Obviously, this shows how complicit the NMB and Delta execs were in padding the list in every way possible. In fact, if you add the 1,100 FAs on long-term furloughs with the 821 FAs that took the early out (both groups have little to no employer-employee relationship with Delta), what you get is an additional 1,900 people padded onto the eligibility roster. So, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to say that the Delta FAs (that actually WORK AT DELTA) won their election. Removing the 1,900 from the roster (oh...and the dead lady) would have offset the mere 1,300 votes short of the 50% plus one. Congrads, Delta FAs !!!

4. Finally, AFA wouldn't "raid" the AA FAs. AFA doesn't go out knocking on doors to drum up membership. Like somebody accurately stated here, all organizing campaigns are based on the pleas from FAs that want to join AFA. I speak from experience when I say this -- because when we first requested AFA's help with an organizing campaign in Sept 2005, we were asked to establish (first) whether we thought there was adequate support for the campaign. Obviously, there was -- we won the campaign.

*****Sorry Delta.... you are better off without AFA..... Danny- you are so hungry for this union. What do you think the AFA will give you ? Nothing.
Look at UAL flight Attendants. We are about to OUST AFA after this EARLY OUT PACKAGE they delievered us last friday. IT's a total JOKE!! wait and see.
Why should we keep paying $49.00 a month? We should be like Delta without a union. and keep our money to pay our GASOLINE bill to drive to work.
Look you guys got a better buy out and you make more pay even without a UNION.. sorry.. to bump your bubble on this thing. AFA spent alot of our money to drive this AFA Union for DELTA .. Now they want to raise our dues to $71.00 a month to cover the loss.

 

[southwind]

*****Sorry Delta.... you are better off without AFA..... Danny- you are so hungry for this union. What do you think the AFA will give you ? Nothing.
Look at UAL flight Attendants. We are about to OUST AFA after this EARLY OUT PACKAGE they delievered us last friday. IT's a total JOKE!! wait and see.
Why should we keep paying $49.00 a month? We should be like Delta without a union. and keep our money to pay our GASOLINE bill to drive to work.
Look you guys got a better buy out and you make more pay even without a UNION.. sorry.. to bump your bubble on this thing. AFA spent alot of our money to drive this AFA Union for DELTA .. Now they want to raise our dues to $71.00 a month to cover the loss.

I'm sure part of the $22.00 hike in your monthly dues to the AFA helps cover "THEIR" rising fuel cost, though !