Kev3188
Veteran
Nope.
F/A's haven't had any expire yet, so no net loss.
Nice attempting at flipping, though.
You may not think it's a viable campaign. Your former employer disagrees with you.
Delta (finally) adds -8 to the CF34 line
- Thread starter topDawg
- Start date
Nope.
F/A's haven't had any expire yet, so no net loss.
Nice attempting at flipping, though.
You may not think it's a viable campaign. Your former employer disagrees with you.
And you have never worked for an airline nor been a union members, go get a life.
Oh by the way I was in INT at Piedmont Aviation and saw Mark Cuban stroke a check for his 757 after the bankers, screwed up the transaction, (go figure a banker screwing up).
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
tens of millions of dollars aren't transferred via a paper check today... it just isn't. The bank doesn't cash that big ceremonial check you seem to think they use to pay for the delivery.
earlier this week, you were determined airlines don't buy aircraft in cash and now you are arguing that they actually use paper checks? Lack of credibility suffers when people start to be the experts of everything. Is there any subject about aviation that you don't think you are the know-it-all?
Yes, outsourced maintenance are indeed part of the total DOT reportable maintenance costs. see point above.
It absolutely slays you that DL has the largest non-union maintenance force in the world and they actually have companies coming to them looking to do their maintenance work - far more so than for any other airline in the world. Absolutely slays you that you can't say that a union had anything to do with it. Worse yet is that DL mechanics as a group want nothing to do with a union... they couldn't even convince enough people to express interest even in the wake of the NW merger.
So, the FAs are special and their cards don't expire? what is the percent of cards needed to call for an election and how many DL FAs are there? You need a whole lot more cards than the couple dozen internet malcontent FAs. They just don't represent even close to a majority of DL FAs - and a majority IS what is needed. That point has been made clear in countless elections.
I didn't say the CAMPAIGN isn't viable but that doesn't mean the majority of the DL employees in any workgroup of the large non-unionized will decide it is worth their while to vote in a union. How many times have they had the opportunity and yet failed to do so, including when NW handed the unions 30K union members and in the course of a couple months, DL wiped all of those union dues off of the union membership rolls.
Your post on AA about the dual union strategy was dead on... too bad that you didn't get involved enough in the DL campaigns to fix why unions can't deliver value that the vast majority of employees want. That is all that is needed to explain why more former other airline, now DL employees have decided to walk away from the union than most airlines have ever had in employees - not to speak of being unable to convince PMDL employees that a union is worth their while. Same thing can be said at other airlines as well.
earlier this week, you were determined airlines don't buy aircraft in cash and now you are arguing that they actually use paper checks? Lack of credibility suffers when people start to be the experts of everything. Is there any subject about aviation that you don't think you are the know-it-all?
Yes, outsourced maintenance are indeed part of the total DOT reportable maintenance costs. see point above.
It absolutely slays you that DL has the largest non-union maintenance force in the world and they actually have companies coming to them looking to do their maintenance work - far more so than for any other airline in the world. Absolutely slays you that you can't say that a union had anything to do with it. Worse yet is that DL mechanics as a group want nothing to do with a union... they couldn't even convince enough people to express interest even in the wake of the NW merger.
So, the FAs are special and their cards don't expire? what is the percent of cards needed to call for an election and how many DL FAs are there? You need a whole lot more cards than the couple dozen internet malcontent FAs. They just don't represent even close to a majority of DL FAs - and a majority IS what is needed. That point has been made clear in countless elections.
I didn't say the CAMPAIGN isn't viable but that doesn't mean the majority of the DL employees in any workgroup of the large non-unionized will decide it is worth their while to vote in a union. How many times have they had the opportunity and yet failed to do so, including when NW handed the unions 30K union members and in the course of a couple months, DL wiped all of those union dues off of the union membership rolls.
Your post on AA about the dual union strategy was dead on... too bad that you didn't get involved enough in the DL campaigns to fix why unions can't deliver value that the vast majority of employees want. That is all that is needed to explain why more former other airline, now DL employees have decided to walk away from the union than most airlines have ever had in employees - not to speak of being unable to convince PMDL employees that a union is worth their while. Same thing can be said at other airlines as well.
The AFA couldn't pull it off in 2010 and delayed the NW employees receiving profit sharing, the IAM doesn't stand a chance. AFA is a F/A union that represents FAs, the IAM is a catch all dues hungry union. In the the three years since AFA decertification presumably some of the PM-NW FAs have come out to see the sunny side of non-union environment and may have come to like it. If the IAM wants to squander more money on this hopeless cause, be my guest but history has proven DL employees are content without representation, are treated fairly and receive competitive pay, benefits and work rules.
Here's to hoping the DL F/As research the real IAM-the Learjet, junkets in fancy hotels, $120k admin assistant salaries, intransparent and unaccountable leadership. Just look at the UA T/A that was hailed "monumental, unprecedented" that sold out the membership. You agreed they made missteps and won't even acknowledge it, it's clear the IAM is out of step with their members maybe its time to clean house before organizing.
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
I'm guessing you're talking to 700 here, but I think our MRO business is a good thing, even if it has fallen off a bit.
Don't play coy; you're smarter than that. Of course they expire. This campaign isn't old enough to have cards rolling off yet.
You bet you do. Good thing the number of supporters is exponentially higher than that.
The last election was amazingly close. And while many people have left through EO's, and some are likely content with the current set up, many (including formerly ardent NO voters) are not. Like I said before, the company is doing a great job of organizing for the F/A group.
I think the death knell for the AFA at DL came when they wouldn't release the group to seek representation elsewhere. Of course, the company has done plenty over the years to vilify the AFA- and they'll do so now with the IAM as well (actually, it's already well underway)...
That's just it. W/R/T the F/A's specifically, many feel that the total compensation package is now regressive, to say nothing of work rules. When a raise here doesn't offset an increased employee borne cost there, well...
As you know, my issues are mainly with 141. One of the great things about the F/A campaign is that while the IAM is providing logistic support, they've basically stepped aside and let the activists run their campaign themselves the way they see fit. As you also well know, bottom up organizing/activism is a *big* deal to me...
Well you've said that its outrageous that GVPs like Sito Pantoja and GST Roach are from a carrier (TWA) that hasn't existed for a decade and are out of step with the membership. Leadership starts at the top; it's good that you see the labor movement from the ground up but there is a structure and hierarchy in any organization and decision making comes from the top. Again why can't someone from HA, UA, or US serve as GVP or GST?
As an aside if the FAs do become organized under IAM how is it determined which DL (district lodge in this context) they are covered under?
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
I'm not sure I've categorized it as "outrageous." I do think it's odd that ex-TW employees are disproportionately represented at the top. It's true I'm not a fan of Roach for many reasons. Where he came up is the least of them, though.
After what happened at UA, I'm leery of Pantoja, but he seems to be well endorsed by a few people on this board whose opinions I respect, so we'll see.
Why isn't someone from UA/US/HA up there yet? Beats me. Nothing's stopping it, though.
My understanding is that they will have their own district...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
If outsourcing is a bad thing (and jobs SHOULD BE preserved for mainline employees to the greatest extent possible, then insourcing is a good thing... DL is insourcing more work both from regional carriers and other carriers around the world via ground handling and Tech Ops contracts than is any other carrier in the western hemisphere
Thank you, as are you. Notably, you are a labor expert on here and don’t try to throw in finance “expertise” too.
The only reason why the cards haven’t expired is because one campaign keeps following another.... I mean, DL FAs have had more representation elections than the number of pair of underwear most FAs carry on a weeklong trip... to Africa.
The only real way to know how much support the unions have is to have an election... both sides can talk about the amount of support they have but that IS why the elections are held... and so far, the company continues to be able to overcome whatever advantages the unions claim to have.
Yet, the latest DOT data (available at the airline data project of MIT) shows that DL FA’s average salary is higher than the FAs at UA or US, DL peers that have been thru BK. What is more notable is that the DL’s growth rate has involving hiring (interviewing and retaining on the payroll) more new FAs than any other airline in the US – probably the western hemisphere too.
Hopefully 2012 data will be released soon but for now there is evidence that DL FAs, like other DL employees, continue to see their salaries increase.
robbedagain
Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Messages
- 11,125
- Reaction score
- 2,676
is there a link to dl insourcing work from both regional carriers and other airlines
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
not that I know of... someone might. Insourcing is reporting as "other income" or something similar. All of the major US airlines present their CASM based on their mainline only operation, excluding insourcing and ancillary businesses such as tour/vacation businesses or the IFE business for B6. Of course airlines that insource talk about it and tell what they generate in insourced revenue but you can calculate the amount of insourced revenue (not entirely all maintenance related) from the earnings statements which show how the mainline CASM is calculate by backing out all other costs.
DL has said its maintenance insourcing business generates more than $500 million/ year and they want to double that within a few years.
Insourcing revenue for DL is high margin business which subsidizes DL's own maintenance operation, part of what keeps DL's own mainline maintenance CASM down.
DL has said its maintenance insourcing business generates more than $500 million/ year and they want to double that within a few years.
Insourcing revenue for DL is high margin business which subsidizes DL's own maintenance operation, part of what keeps DL's own mainline maintenance CASM down.
robbedagain
Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Messages
- 11,125
- Reaction score
- 2,676
where does the insourcing by way of other carriers fit in or is that a seperate thing
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
If you are asking how much insourcing other carriers do, AA used to do a lot but they have pulled back. US does some according to 700 but the adjustment they show on their financial statements indicates it isn't very large in terms of their total operation. I don't know about the regional carriers.
Kev3188
Veteran
Given the small list (ground handling), that's not saying a whole lot.
Tenacity is a good thing.
...And really; what does that say about a company that these drives keep occurring? The mantra was "give us a chance." Well, we did. It didn't work.
if you're looking for ramp contracts, the list is pretty short, and hasn't materially changed in the last few years. We handle F9 in a handful of places, AS in ~ a dozen or so, KL & AF in a couple of places, and some one off carriers in various cities. Awhile ago, we took back handling of regional flights in CVG and (mostly) in SLC. In line stations, we still work 'em all. That may be "new" at DL, but it's how it always was in NW ones.
DL likes to talk up insourcing, but they've yet to open (or reopen) a new point since the merger.
On the MTX side, I'm not sure who all DL has for customers. I'll let one of the AMT's that are on here take a stab at that one... The last few customer announcements they've made have seemed like pretty obscure carriers-and not a lot of volume. JMHO.
