Delta Air Lines Seeks 'Crown Jewel' for New York-JFK Hub: Nonstop Flights to London

[JAMAKE1]

So tell me who can more accurately demonstrate an understanding of the airline business?

So WT, I'll ask you again. If you are so "astute" about the airline business, what are you doing HERE, spending all of your time on an internet chat board? Wouldn't your time be better spent using your knowledge and full potential working in high finance at Delta's headquarters in Atlanta? After all, a mind is a terrible thing to waste...

 

[artiefufkin1]

" It is for this same reason that AA discontinued its JFK-FRA route a while back...
[/quote]


That combined with AA's high costs and FRA's lower importance to NYC corporate customers. AA will only tolerate mediocre margins in NYC markets that have a strategic value. ATL, Shuttle, Florida, CDG.

 

[JAMAKE1]

Those of you that want to deny DL its turnaround are simply unable to execute it at your own airlines.

That's not it all, WT. I believe that most of us do not begrudge Delta at all. But when you make such outlandish comments about how the competition is going to be acquired by Delta, or other statements that are over the top, just expect to be called on the carpet for it.

I'll say it one last time, WT: You've LOST your objectivity, your sense of reasoning, AND your credibility as a contributor to these internet chat boards. :down:

Over and out...

 

[artiefufkin1]

Chill out Jake...LOL

You're taking this way too seriously. Half of his bluster is WT just yanking your chain.

 

[hp_fa]

That's not it all, WT. I believe that most of us do not begrudge Delta at all. But when you make such outlandish comments about how the competition is going to be acquired by Delta, or other statements that are over the top, just expect to be called on the carpet for it.

I'll say it one last time, WT: You've LOST your objectivity, your sense of reasoning, AND your credibility as a contributor to these internet chat boards. :down:

Over and out...

I'm with ya on this. I have no problems with seeing DL survive or grow, but the comments are what get me going. I've never cared for shills and thought most of them worked at the used car lots or were in PR.

 

[artiefufkin1]

I'm with ya on this. I have no problems with seeing DL survive or grow, but the comments are what get me going. I've never cared for shills and thought most of them worked at the used car lots or were in PR.

So then you have a problem with the fool earlier in the thread saying DL was going into Chapter 7?

 

[Fly]

Chill out Jake...LOL

You're taking this way too seriously. Half of his bluster is WT just yanking your chain.

Well, he's yanking something, that's for sure.

Once again, United has no NY feed, so they not only kept every slot in LHR and NRT, they also made some $$$ while still redeploying their flights from hubs with feed.

Tell us again, WT/Artie (talking to yourself now I see), why it was a prudent decision for DAL to leave Dallas but not for UAL to leave NY and their 6 gates? And don't forget the impending merger buzz with CAL. In that merger, here comes UAL to fly to LHR again from NY.

 

[hp_fa]

So then you have a problem with the fool earlier in the thread saying DL was going into Chapter 7?

I agree with the message I quoted in my message.

 

[artiefufkin1]

Well as for me, I didn't think it made sense to cut DFW before the cost cutting had a chance to show results. As for UA, I do think it's better with their high costs, to leave NYC because it was a money loser and didnt' help them in the grand scheme of things.

UA has a much larger problem. They did not get the job done in Chapter 11, costs are still too high. Their non-fuel cost have actually gone up. They have a tough road ahead of them.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, WH, you are right on the typo. The reference should be to to regulated era. The point is that DL couldn't find its way to success for years and managed to survive despite itself. It now has found what it takes to succeed and is dramatically turning the ship around. It is for that reason that I am very optimistic about DL's ability to take a leadership position in the industry.

For those of you who have looked at DL and UA’s joint application to the DOT to transfer UA’s NYC-LON rights, you will see the dozens of destinations that DL serves from JFK that will provide connections to London. Every city that UA served from JFK had its own nonstop service to London. UA was trying to operate the flight on a point to point basis in two cities, NYC and London, where neither UA or the Star Alliance is the largest carrier.

The application can be found here:
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf97/406913_web.pdf

For those of you who think I can so no wrong about DL, I have repeatedly stated that DL’s previous failures on the Pacific were because of exactly the same situation UA faced to London – lack of feed. Even the largest international markets require feed on one end or the other or they don’t work. Even if a market is large enough to support nonstop point to point service, there will be other carriers that enter the market using a hub on one end. The carrier operating point to point service will face eroded yields and will struggle to maintain market competitive traffic levels. Based on what DL is doing at JFK, I believe DL recognized the error of its previous Pacific strategy and will be back again, using the right aircraft and providing an abundance of domestic feed this time around.

Regional jets are inherently higher CASM aircraft but the added value they bring to an international operation is enormous. Operating ten regional aircraft in and out of an international gateway is a very small price to pay to support an international flight that can easily generate $50 million per year and often much more than that. Because European flights operate within a 4-6 hour window each day, DL expanded the domestic schedule to provide a small domestic hub and added Mexico and Latin flying which operates at different times that European flights. In reality, DL is shifting part of its CVG domestic operation to JFK to provide enough domestic mass.

There remains a hugely wild assumption that LHR is the preferred London airport and that none other will work. The reality is that no other London airport besides LHR has been able to grow to its full potential because of Bermuda 2. There was a time when JFK was the preferred international airport for NYC but since free market forces were allowed to work, EWR is a very successful international gateway. The same can be said for IAD and BWI. While most foreign carriers that serve London use Heathrow (which is undoubtedly why DL wants to be there because that critical mass brings an abundance of connecting opportunities), airlines have never been free to fully develop Gatwick so it really is not known how well it will do. NW’s ability to maintain service on DTWLGW despite BA’s use of DTWLHR along with CO’s flights in EWRLGW against BA and VS in EWRLHR shows that LHR service does not at all make it impossible for a carrier to succeed at LGW. In time, you could well see substantial transatlantic service from STN as well.

 

[767jetz]

while WT does embellish quite a bit, the UA sour grapes posts on this thread are ridiculous.

UA paid a lot for those London slots. they are giving them away now to what will end up being a much stronger competitor in NYC.

Um... I don't think you understand what actually happened.

UA did pay alot for the LHR slots, and we still have our LHR slots. Those slots can be used from any of our hubs.

What was sold is a Route Authority to fly from New York to London. Without the slots DL must operate that route authority to LGW, and LGW alone. They are still locked out of LHR.

There is a HUGE difference between a slot and a route authority.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Chill out Jake...LOL

You're taking this way too seriously. Half of his bluster is WT just yanking your chain.

Darn it.... I've got a persona to keep up. Don't go giving my secrets away.

Actually, I'm paid by the moderators/owners of this board to generate some ad revenue. You'll have to admit the summer doldrums came to an end last Friday. I'm waiting for my commission check.

Fly,
give the CO thing a rest. You sound like a 23 year old that just got the BA and is now working OT on the MRS. You know what they say: the things you want in life usually don't come until you let go of them.

 

[Fly]

Fly,
give the CO thing a rest. You sound like a 23 year old that just got the BA and is now working OT on the MRS. You know what they say: the things you want in life usually don't come until you let go of them.

Why? Does it scare you that the possibility is VERY GOOD? OR that if it does happen, your REAL desire (UAL/DL merger) is out the door? Do you remember last year PMing about my desire to merge with DL and having to start over on the bottom?

Give it a rest World/Artie....you're freaking out and we all see it.

 

[flyhigh]

World,

While feed helps in most cases, this is one where DL will be the most reliant on it. AA/BA/VS have most of the business community locked up on LHR svc. Even VS has a hard time on the US services...thus the importance the CO deal has had for them. DL has done well over the years making money connecting people, esp. in ATL, however JFK hasn't been as sucessful. Think back to when DL tried competing against AA/UA/TW on the transcons. Even with an inferior product, TW was beating DL who languished in 4th place. That was the reason for the switch to Song on the routes. The ONLY premium traffic DL was getting was Int'l connections. So, the point is...even if DL can build up to 5 a day...an option I'm not sure they have given the constraints of LGW (it's not that big either) they could offer that much service...you're still trying to beat AA/BA/VS all who have a better cabin service. Is it a good add..YES. Will it be profitable? I would estimate system, but not segment profitable...which would make it worth it.

 

[TechBoy]

There remains a hugely wild assumption that LHR is the preferred London airport and that none other will work. The reality is that no other London airport besides LHR has been able to grow to its full potential because of Bermuda 2. There was a time when JFK was the preferred international airport for NYC but since free market forces were allowed to work, EWR is a very successful international gateway. The same can be said for IAD and BWI. While most foreign carriers that serve London use Heathrow (which is undoubtedly why DL wants to be there because that critical mass brings an abundance of connecting opportunities), airlines have never been free to fully develop Gatwick so it really is not known how well it will do. NW’s ability to maintain service on DTWLGW despite BA’s use of DTWLHR along with CO’s flights in EWRLGW against BA and VS in EWRLHR shows that LHR service does not at all make it impossible for a carrier to succeed at LGW. In time, you could well see substantial transatlantic service from STN as well.

No, WT, DL does not want to be at LHR because of the "connecting opportunities." (Indeed, are there any meaningful SkyTeam connections where DL doesn't already have direct flights?) DL wants LHR because most business pax prefer LHR. There is a world of difference between arriving at LGW and LHR, unlike JFK and EWR which are fairly equidistant to Manhattan. By train, LGW is about 20 mins. additional. While that is a bearable time addition, it is only relevant for some. By taxi or car service (the preferred method of those flying in the premium cabins), LGW can be 30-60 mins. longer than LHR.

However, this is still probably a good move for DL. It fills a hole in their JFK hub. With good feed, it will fill the plane with DL loyalists in the NE (but might hurt traffic/yields at CVG as the loyalists may switch to JFK). But I doubt that it will produce a yield higher than CO at EWR. In C class, the locals will prefer the superior product of VS and BA (and soon AA) while the connecters (and SkyTeamers) will go through EWR for CO's superior product. As for F class, . . . wait, DL doesn't offer F class (so they cannot be considered a real global carrier anyway . . .). So while DL may find the route profitable, I suspect that they will be #5 in the market.