Defend Recall Rights, Defend Our Careers

[AC AA LA FA]

.....just a note here....JN does not speak for me!! The vast majority of line f/as at AA know that him and his 4m flock are radical malcontents-why even bother....?

 

[nbmcg01]

.....just a note here....JN does not speak for me!! The vast majority of line f/as at AA know that him and his 4m flock are radical malcontents-why even bother....?

did you get my email?

 

[BartlettAve]

did you get my email?

Jay Narey seems to be afraid that re-employment of the TWA flight attendants would be so costly that his company will be pushed into insolvency. He's wrong.

Mr. Narey also seems to feel that in order to grant furloughees extended recall rights the company will want money from his paycheck. In that case, he's correct.

However, it didn't have to be that way.

In 2001, when the APFA created the "Seniority Integration Agreement" and presented it to American it could have included a clause that lengthened the recall period. They did not have the foresight to do that.

In 2003, when the company demanded the huge concessions from FAS, concessions that included mass layoffs, the APFA could have demanded extended recall rights. They did nothave the balls to.

During 2005/2006 when the APFA allowed the company to "test" efficiencies on how they schedule FAS (reduced staffing on Hawaii. 737/M80 combined bid sheets, etc) they could have demanded extended recall. They did not.

For over 15 years the TWA flight attendants fought oppressive management. With every $$$ give-back or work rule change, we got something back. APFA could have achieved extended recall rights for TWA flight attendants, but they chose not to fight.

I will continue to believe that the APFA and AA are working together to shut out the TWA attendants.

I picketed yesterday to shame and embarrass the APFA. I believe we succeeded. I've read letters from leaders at both the AFA and Teamsters that admonish the APFA for their lack of unionism. I argued with the very "short-fused" APFA communication director about the APFA's ultimate resposibility for what happened to the TWA workers. I saw a shell-shocked look on the face of the APFA president as I tried to make eye contact with her when we met.

By the end of the day, after a media event that brought AA officers, union leaders, and furloughees together, I beleive there will be a token amount of TWAers recalled. The projected amount of attrition over the next 21 months will require it. I don't think I'm senior enough to be helped by that. But, as much as I liked working for American Airlines ,after reading the posts of the Jay Narey-like AA flight attendants on this thread, I know I am much better off not coming back.

 

[aafsc]

Attrition under normal circumstances would facilitate a recall; but AA will be grounding 19 aircraft (ex-twa 757s) over the next two years. Additionally, in my opinion, they will try to convice the AA pilots to let Eagle fly the Embraer 190 ( a 100 seat aircraft) if AMR does in fact decide to purchase some for AE; this would elimate the need for recalls because the growth and replacement (for AA's oldest S-80s) can occur at AE with these new aircraft. Although there are many variables in this industry that affect the number of recalls, I think that AA will do all it can to not recall any F/As. One reason, as posted earlier, is that because of the fact that the ex-twa F/As are topped out and when combined with benefits would be very expensive. Another reason would be the animosity between the two F/A groups. Do you really think that the nAAtive F/As would agree to take another paycut for the sake of the ex-twaers while those very same ex-twaers are still trying to get their full twa seniority at AA so they can fly the best lines? I think not and once their recall rights expire, they are totally gone forever. APFA was NOT responsible for what happened to the ex-twa F/As. AA dictates the flight schedule and the APFA did a superb job of protecting their pre-transaction members; as they were legally required to do- last in first out. I only wish that the APFA could have negotiated a "seniority integration agreement" for us on the ramp.

 

[nbmcg01]

Attrition under normal circumstances would facilitate a recall; but AA will be grounding 19 aircraft (ex-twa 757s) over the next two years. Additionally, in my opinion, they will try to convice the AA pilots to let Eagle fly the Embraer 190 ( a 100 seat aircraft) if AMR does in fact decide to purchase some for AE; this would elimate the need for recalls because the growth and replacement (for AA's oldest S-80s) can occur at AE with these new aircraft. Although there are many variables in this industry that affect the number of recalls, I think that AA will do all it can to not recall any F/As. One reason, as posted earlier, is that because of the fact that the ex-twa F/As are topped out and when combined with benefits would be very expensive. Another reason would be the animosity between the two F/A groups. Do you really think that the nAAtive F/As would agree to take another paycut for the sake of the ex-twaers while those very same ex-twaers are still trying to get their full twa seniority at AA so they can fly the best lines? I think not and once their recall rights expire, they are totally gone forever. APFA was NOT responsible for what happened to the ex-twa F/As. AA dictates the flight schedule and the APFA did a superb job of protecting their pre-transaction members; as they were legally required to do- last in first out. I only wish that the APFA could have negotiated a "seniority integration agreement" for us on the ramp.

For heavens sake, give it a rest. The former TWA f/as will be at the bottom on the seniority list. They are professionals first and foremost. They are not asking to sleep with the other AA f/a, just return to flying for the remainder of their careers. They will be on reserve. They will fly the dregs of the schedule. They are not asking now nor have they EVER asked that any AA f/a give up a penny. Any penny lost to concession would also be a penny lost to them. The only f/as perpetuating the seniority myth is a very small group of uninformed, narrow minded, self serving individuals, who blame the war, Hurricane Katrina, high gas prices, and the RPA on the former TWA f/as. We have been through many fires and trust me, a four day trip together would be a cake walk. Find another avenue to try and keep the two apart. AA wins and the rest of you lose. Maybe one day you will get it but only when something like the loss of a 20, 30, or 40 year career (which could have been avoided with astute and experienced union negotiators) comes to your home. The rest will be history. Oh, by the way, the grounding of the TW 757s was planned long before the furloughs.

 

[jimntx]

Attrition under normal circumstances would facilitate a recall; but AA will be grounding 19 aircraft (ex-twa 757s) over the next two years. Additionally, in my opinion, they will try to convice the AA pilots to let Eagle fly the Embraer 190 ( a 100 seat aircraft) if AMR does in fact decide to purchase some for AE; this would elimate the need for recalls because the growth and replacement (for AA's oldest S-80s) can occur at AE with these new aircraft.

Eliminating 19 757s would reduce the need for about 500 f/as over the next two years. Considering that we are losing almost 1000 f/as per year to attrition, 500 is a drop in the bucket. Oh, and AA is not grounding those a/c, they are returning them to the lessor.

I think it will be a cold day in hell before the APA allows a 100-seat a/c to be flown at AE. What would they possibly have to gain by allowing this? They know that the company is not going to give the mainline pilots any money to pay them for such a concession--else what would be the point of putting the a/c at AE.

Although there are many variables in this industry that affect the number of recalls, I think that AA will do all it can to not recall any F/As. One reason, as posted earlier, is that because of the fact that the ex-twa F/As are topped out and when combined with benefits would be very expensive.

Lord knows, don't let lack of knowledge of the facts get in the way of your opinion. First off, as of the June, 2006 published seniority list, 68% of the active f/a corps is already at top of scale. Even if no one quits, dies, retires, or gets fired between now and July, 2008, that percentage will grow to 74% of the active f/as being at top of scale.

However, at the rate that people are quitting who have not yet reached TOS, my guess is that these percentages will go higher even faster. (We had 5 f/as in the 6-12 year range quit at St. Louis just this month.)

Another reason would be the animosity between the two F/A groups. Do you really think that the nAAtive F/As would agree to take another paycut for the sake of the ex-twaers while those very same ex-twaers are still trying to get their full twa seniority at AA so they can fly the best lines? I think not and once their recall rights expire, they are totally gone forever. APFA was NOT responsible for what happened to the ex-twa F/As

I don't know where you are getting your "information," but you need to go back to that person and tell them they are full of baloney. I know several of the former TW f/as. I've never met a more professional group of people. The nAAtive f/as I see around me today could learn a lot from them. Any animosity would be from my fellow, self-centered nAAtive f/as.

You obviously don't bother finding out the truth. A recall of the former TW f/as would not cost us nAAtives a friggin dime. Where do you get this "another pay cut" stuff from? Oh, and the former TW flight attendants NEVER even hinted in jest that they wanted full seniority at AA.

One other thing...the APFA (with some help from the company) was TOTALLY responsible for what happened to the former TW flight attendants. The company and the APFA saw to it that 22 (yes, 22) former TW f/as were force-trained on AA equipment in early 2003. TW f/as being trained on AA equipment was one of the triggers for taking down the fence around STL. I have yet to have an officer of APFA or even a senior AA f/a (who, of course, by virtue of their seniority automatically know more than I) give a rational justification for training only 22 TW f/as on AA equipment. That would provide coverage for 7 S80s for less than one day. The only reason they were trained is because the company and the APFA knew that another major furlough was coming that summer, and they made furlough fodder out of the former TW f/as.


They trained those 22 so they could take the fence down and furlough ALL the former TW f/as in July, 2003 instead of an additional 3000 nAAtives. And, don't say they were just protecting their members. At that point the former TW f/as had been dues-paying members of APFA for over 2 years.

By the way, if the fence had not been taken down, I would not only have been furloughed anyway, I probably would not yet be recalled. In fact, I probably would never be recalled to AA. So what? Fair is fair.

 

[nbmcg01]

Eliminating 19 757s would reduce the need for about 500 f/as over the next two years. Considering that we are losing almost 1000 f/as per year to attrition, 500 is a drop in the bucket. Oh, and AA is not grounding those a/c, they are returning them to the lessor.

I think it will be a cold day in hell before the APA allows a 100-seat a/c to be flown at AE. What would they possibly have to gain by allowing this? They know that the company is not going to give the mainline pilots any money to pay them for such a concession--else what would be the point of putting the a/c at AE.
Lord knows, don't let lack of knowledge of the facts get in the way of your opinion. First off, as of the June, 2006 published seniority list, 68% of the active f/a corps is already at top of scale. Even if no one quits, dies, retires, or gets fired between now and July, 2008, that percentage will grow to 74% of the active f/as being at top of scale.

However, at the rate that people are quitting who have not yet reached TOS, my guess is that these percentages will go higher even faster. (We had 5 f/as in the 6-12 year range quit at St. Louis just this month.)
I don't know where you are getting your "information," but you need to go back to that person and tell them they are full of baloney. I know several of the former TW f/as. I've never met a more professional group of people. The nAAtive f/as I see around me today could learn a lot from them. Any animosity would be from my fellow, self-centered nAAtive f/as.

You obviously don't bother finding out the truth. A recall of the former TW f/as would not cost us nAAtives a friggin dime. Where do you get this "another pay cut" stuff from? Oh, and the former TW flight attendants NEVER even hinted in jest that they wanted full seniority at AA.

One other thing...the APFA (with some help from the company) was TOTALLY responsible for what happened to the former TW flight attendants. The company and the APFA saw to it that 22 (yes, 22) former TW f/as were force-trained on AA equipment in early 2003. TW f/as being trained on AA equipment was one of the triggers for taking down the fence around STL. I have yet to have an officer of APFA or even a senior AA f/a (who, of course, by virtue of their seniority automatically know more than I) give a rational justification for training only 22 TW f/as on AA equipment. That would provide coverage for 7 S80s for less than one day. The only reason they were trained is because the company and the APFA knew that another major furlough was coming that summer, and they made furlough fodder out of the former TW f/as.
They trained those 22 so they could take the fence down and furlough ALL the former TW f/as in July, 2003 instead of an additional 3000 nAAtives. And, don't say they were just protecting their members. At that point the former TW f/as had been dues-paying members of APFA for over 2 years.

By the way, if the fence had not been taken down, I would not only have been furloughed anyway, I probably would not yet be recalled. In fact, I probably would never be recalled to AA. So what? Fair is fair.

You rock Gentleman Jim.

 

[s80dude]

Were they really forced? A nice lady I met at an EC meeting named Eve, who was a 25 year TWA flight attendant told me that they had 22 volunteers for the training and that in the rest of the TWA F/A's eyes, they were considered traitors. Were these 22 forced, or did they have ample volunteers?

 

[nbmcg01]

Were they really forced? A nice lady I met at an EC meeting named Eve, who was a 25 year TWA flight attendant told me that they had 22 volunteers for the training and that in the rest of the TWA F/A's eyes, they were considered traitors. Were these 22 forced, or did they have ample volunteers?

The TWA f/as were told if they didn't get the "volunteers", there would be drafting. Either way it was done only to "merge" the seniority list. It is history now.

 

[jimntx]

Were they really forced? A nice lady I met at an EC meeting named Eve, who was a 25 year TWA flight attendant told me that they had 22 volunteers for the training and that in the rest of the TWA F/A's eyes, they were considered traitors. Were these 22 forced, or did they have ample volunteers?

It was like Yourworld Training--remember that jewel? You could volunteer or be drafted. Either way, you had to go.

 

[AC AA LA FA]

They trained those 22 so they could take the fence down and furlough ALL the former TW f/as in July, 2003 instead of an additional 3000 nAAtives. And, don't say they were just protecting their members. At that point the former TW f/as had been dues-paying members of APFA for over 2 years.

..So what do you think should have happened at this juncture?
I curiously await your response?

 

[AC AA LA FA]

They trained those 22 so they could take the fence down and furlough ALL the former TW f/as in July, 2003 instead of an additional 3000 nAAtives. And, don't say they were just protecting their members. At that point the former TW f/as had been dues-paying members of APFA for over 2 years.

..So what do you think should have happened at this juncture?
I curiously await your response?

 

[jimntx]

They trained those 22 so they could take the fence down and furlough ALL the former TW f/as in July, 2003 instead of an additional 3000 nAAtives. And, don't say they were just protecting their members. At that point the former TW f/as had been dues-paying members of APFA for over 2 years.

..So what do you think should have happened at this juncture?
I curiously await your response?

They should have left the fence up per the Seniority Integration "Agreement." I put the word agreement in quotes because the former TW flight attendants were not really asked whether they agreed with it or not. It was imposed by the APFA and the company. (I guess as long as the APFA and the company agreed, that was enough to call it an agreement.)

What would have happened? A lot more nAAtives would have been furloughed in July, 2003. Based upon the current staffing of the SLT base, most of the former TW flight attendants would have been furloughed eventually as well. But, there would still be a small corps of them behind the fence at STL. IIRC, the fence would have come down in April of this year, but as long as the former TW flight attendants stayed in STL, they would have retained their seniority.

The number of us from the AA side who would have ended up permanently furloughed would have been greater than the approximately 1000 that will lose their recall rights on 01Oct, but not that much larger. Probably everyone hired in 2000 and 2001.

But, no one would have been able to question the ethics or the honesty of the union. A real union does not single out a particular group of its members for job loss. A real union does what it can to preserve each and every job. The Blessed Order of the Perpetually Trip-Removed (aka, APFA) deliberately worked to take down the fence so that a particular group of its dues paying members--many of whom had 20 or more years of experience--would be sacrificed to save the jobs of another group of members who had less than 10 years on the job. So much for "seniority."

The BOPT-R was mad because the company granted pay seniority to the former TW f/as. This was not something that the former TW f/as asked for or negotiated with the company for. But the BOPT-R was determined to make the f/as pay for the fact that the company did not consult with the BOPT-R on this matter.

The BOPT-R which fancies itself a real union does nothing like a real union except collect mandatory dues from its members. Did it occur to any of you "senior" f/as that your almighty union made seasonal furloughs possible when they gave up furlough pay (and got nothing in return from the company)?

The company can now afford to furlough the most junior f/as after Labor Day, recall them for Thanksgiving and Christmas, furlough them again in early January, recall for Spring Break/Easter, furlough again until Summer. None of the furloughees would be off the payroll long enough to require retraining.

The result: The most junior f/as would start quitting left and right. Which would simply raise the bottom higher and higher. More and more of the precious senior f/as would have to go back on reserve, or (horrors) become subject to the seasonal furloughs.

Of course, more senior people going back on reserve is probably going to happen anyway. More and more of the less than 15 year people are calling it quits. When I was recalled in Nov., 2004, if you had 6 years at SLT, you were completely off reserve. The preliminary numbers for October at SLT indicate that reserve will go to 11 years and backup reserve to 14 years.

The "senior" people who were determined to throw as many junior people under the bus as necessary to stay off reserve have no one to thank but yourselves and the BOPT-R.
The bid lines are getting more and more crappy. Not just the actual flying and duty days, but also, the way the lines are built is making it harder and harder for those f/as who must fly high time to pick up extra flying. And, they can't get rid of the "blocking" trips because no one wants to fly other people's crap.

I can afford to fly just my line and take home $1500/mo. Not many of the other junior f/as can. I expect that the attrition rate will pick up unless there are some drastic changes in the lines.

 

[nbmcg01]

Also, the original SIA (Seniority Integration Agreement) fenced JFK.

They should have left the fence up per the Seniority Integration "Agreement." I put the word agreement in quotes because the former TW flight attendants were not really asked whether they agreed with it or not. It was imposed by the APFA and the company. (I guess as long as the APFA and the company agreed, that was enough to call it an agreement.)

What would have happened? A lot more nAAtives would have been furloughed in July, 2003. Based upon the current staffing of the SLT base, most of the former TW flight attendants would have been furloughed eventually as well. But, there would still be a small corps of them behind the fence at STL. IIRC, the fence would have come down in April of this year, but as long as the former TW flight attendants stayed in STL, they would have retained their seniority.

The number of us from the AA side who would have ended up permanently furloughed would have been greater than the approximately 1000 that will lose their recall rights on 01Oct, but not that much larger. Probably everyone hired in 2000 and 2001.

But, no one would have been able to question the ethics or the honesty of the union. A real union does not single out a particular group of its members for job loss. A real union does what it can to preserve each and every job. The Blessed Order of the Perpetually Trip-Removed (aka, APFA) deliberately worked to take down the fence so that a particular group of its dues paying members--many of whom had 20 or more years of experience--would be sacrificed to save the jobs of another group of members who had less than 10 years on the job. So much for "seniority."

The BOPT-R was mad because the company granted pay seniority to the former TW f/as. This was not something that the former TW f/as asked for or negotiated with the company for. But the BOPT-R was determined to make the f/as pay for the fact that the company did not consult with the BOPT-R on this matter.

The BOPT-R which fancies itself a real union does nothing like a real union except collect mandatory dues from its members. Did it occur to any of you "senior" f/as that your almighty union made seasonal furloughs possible when they gave up furlough pay (and got nothing in return from the company)?

The company can now afford to furlough the most junior f/as after Labor Day, recall them for Thanksgiving and Christmas, furlough them again in early January, recall for Spring Break/Easter, furlough again until Summer. None of the furloughees would be off the payroll long enough to require retraining.

The result: The most junior f/as would start quitting left and right. Which would simply raise the bottom higher and higher. More and more of the precious senior f/as would have to go back on reserve, or (horrors) become subject to the seasonal furloughs.

Of course, more senior people going back on reserve is probably going to happen anyway. More and more of the less than 15 year people are calling it quits. When I was recalled in Nov., 2004, if you had 6 years at SLT, you were completely off reserve. The preliminary numbers for October at SLT indicate that reserve will go to 11 years and backup reserve to 14 years.

The "senior" people who were determined to throw as many junior people under the bus as necessary to stay off reserve have no one to thank but yourselves and the BOPT-R.
The bid lines are getting more and more crappy. Not just the actual flying and duty days, but also, the way the lines are built is making it harder and harder for those f/as who must fly high time to pick up extra flying. And, they can't get rid of the "blocking" trips because no one wants to fly other people's crap.

I can afford to fly just my line and take home $1500/mo. Not many of the other junior f/as can. I expect that the attrition rate will pick up unless there are some drastic changes in the lines.

 

[FA Mikey]

Lets not forget the total scum bags in office at the time. We do need to work with AA to extend indefinitly the recall rights for all FA's who want to return.