Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

The NAC has made it clear that the MOU has more value than the CoC.

Uh, yeah, I know.

 

[dca319]

Uh, yeah, I know.

Sorry, that was directed more at luv and not you.

 

[cactusboy53]

Good luck with that. Your lack of understanding about what is and isn't binding has cost your constituency years and millions.

Right back at you Swanny (IMO,obviously). We'll see how this ends up. One side will be right, one will be wrong. Whom ever is wrong will be the party responsible for delay & loss.

CB

 

[A320 Driver]

I can’t help but draw comparisons to our Volant model with the vote on the MOU. Ladies and gentlemen, I understand the frustration of living under bankruptcy contracts and wages for over a decade. But realize that the company has used every possible weapon in their arsenal against us to continually delay our negotiations to keep us from attaining an industry standard contract. As a result of these efforts, they have managed our expectations downward so, when an offer--any offer-- is laid before us, it’s going to look good. But think logically on this: When have they ever negotiated in good faith with us? Why should we start trusting them now, especially with signing what amounts to nothing more than a blank check while waiving critical contractual protections? Look what they’ve done here: totally blew us off and performed an end run around to the AA pilots. We are being set up to go into a merger with a bankrupt airline without our own contract in place. Has it escaped anyone that the AA MOU has much better provisions in it for a bankrupt carrier than our own MOU from an airline that just posted record profits! And these financial gains are not due to the managerial prowess of Team Tempe. It’s a direct result of the enormous sacrifices of the employees, particularly the pilot group. But where is the pay back in the MOU for this? $40 million on a $6+ billion investment? That's just recycled MOU 1.0 and I consider it an insult. The vague language contained in the MOU is a recipe for disaster, especially with the company lawyers who get paid well to ensure any and all loopholes are exploited. And what about one of the most important items going forward--seniority? Are you willing to go into a merger with 2000 West and 10,000 AA pilots waiting to pick that fruit from the East tree? Look at the history of how seniority played out with AA merger partners in the past. Not a pretty picture. Do yourselves a favor and look past the dollar signs on the posted pay scales (are they really industry standard anyway?) and read the fine print in this MOU. Dig deeper than just looking at the pretty pictures and positive spin in the "Flight Plan to a Merger sales brochure” that Captain Rick LaMontagne so aptly describes. The company wants something from us that they can’t have without us giving it to them. Don’t vote to screw yourselves like we did with our pension! This will likely be the last contract for many of us. The fact that there might be a merger shouldn’t be part of the equation: the UCC is in the driver’s seat on that. The company is doing exactly what check airmen do in the CQT: task load you, add lots of attention diversions, and then give artificial time constraints in an attempt to lead you into the red. Do what you as professional pilots need to do to get back into the green by voting NO on this MOU!

Now I've heard it all...the Volant model (the Threat and Error Management Model) should help you decide how to vote on the MOU. I've never seen such desperation. You're going to lose Luv. You can't stop it. There is nothing you can do, there is nothing you can say. The MOU will pass. The NAC, the advisors and our lawyers have worked hard to bring us to equal footing with our counterparts in the APA. There is no way you can screw this up...you don't have the votes or the support. Make all the posts you want, quote all the people you want. You lose.

 

[Bill Brasky]

My question is this: Isn't this the same MOU that the AMR pilots have? A lot of folks on here act as though this were an agreement unique to USAPA, and I don't believe that is true. A lot of it really sucks, but can't it be corrected in negotiations for a JCBA? It seems a lot of the problems are fairly low cost items, like job protections and insurance.

Not trying to make a scene, just want to know if my perceptions are true.

 

[Zone5]

OK, I'll take that because I wasn't more clear. The Nicolau is the only integrated list the company has in its possession.

Which means what? They don't use it, so what good is it? The company clearly understands the East-West ALPA TA (inherited by USAPA), which requires a JCBA between East and West for it to become REALITY, absent that........well on the last permanent bid award that I am on, there are NO Westies. Am I missing something here? The MOU clearly states that moving forward, any and everything else preceding it, goes in to the "round file". If it gets voted in, everybody (even those who vote NO) owns it and will have to live with it. At which point, if you feel strongly enough that you have been "wronged", feel free to get a lawyer (no problem, last I checked there were plenty of them) start writing checks and sue everybody and anybody in site! God Bless America! It's your RIGHT to do so, go for it.


seajay

 

[Zone5]

Again, the list exists. The company doesn't submit it but it doesn't preclude the APA from using it at all.

And no Jamie, you can't fix stupid. Its why we're under LOA 93, an injunction, and a minor player in this merger.

And who is going to "present" the NIC as "The List" to the APA? USAPA is by no means a "minor player" in this merger, if so, who might be the "major player" representing the LCC pilots? Would that be you? God help us!


seajay

 

[Beancounter]

Aw Bean, that hurts.

Sorry man, but you set yourself up for that one.

Bean

 

[Claxon]

Injunctions don't take long. Do you know what an injunction is Courtney?

Dang U Haul, just call him chicken boy like you really like to. Sorry your Move2Clt screen name got a permanent injunction.

 

[Graceson]

luv,

One of the steps in the CRM model is to suggest a solution to the problem you have brought up. So you say we are in the red with the MOU. Okay, give me a quick step by step view of what you think would happen.

I'll start you out. On Feb 8th the vote is tallied and the MOU is voted down. On Feb 9th AA decides to proceed with the merger. What then? What puts us in the green?

No, this is a good track you've put the discussion on. But you're better than that. This isn't the only branch of possible branches in the action/reaction tree. What is the sentiment of selected parties of interest with respect to the unknown of labor harmony? What's Horton's preferable scenario - pre or post BK merger. What leverage would Horton use to defeat Parker? What might Parker do to mitigate? What fraction of a penny on the UCC's dollar is a marginal increase in value of our MOU? What action did other prospects for merger take when Parker couldn't deliver labor resolutions? Just asking... what incentives and motivations are out there swaying action/reaction. What are repercussions for either management, pro or con.

 

[dca319]

And who is going to "present" the NIC as "The List" to the APA? USAPA is by no means a "minor player" in this merger, if so, who might be the "major player" representing the LCC pilots? Would that be you? God help us!


seajay

No one has to present the list to the APA. The APA has the list and knows how we're ordered under the award. You think you can only use the list if its presented to you with a bow attached to it?
An we really are a minor player. If we vote this MOU down the merger continues without us. Ask the NAC why we had to approach the company for an MOU. The company sure didn't come to us.
If we vote this down, USAPA will represent us until single carrier. In the mean time they will negotiate a contract and, eventually. We'll become APA without a vote.

 

[luvthe9]

You lose.

No, WE ALL LOSE. Thanks to all the bed wetters.

 

[dca319]

Dang U Haul, just call him chicken boy like you really like to. Sorry your Move2Clt screen name got a permanent injunction.

Look up the date I came online.

 

[luvthe9]

Thought I read this and I'm not clear on the reserve deal, It seems if you are on reserve like Driver you DO NOT accrual pay at the new rate, it said for "hours flown". So is it hours flown only or your guarantee.

 

[dca319]

Which means what? They don't use it, so what good is it? The company clearly understands the East-West ALPA TA (inherited by USAPA), which requires a JCBA between East and West for it to become REALITY, absent that........well on the last permanent bid award that I am on, there are NO Westies. Am I missing something here? The MOU clearly states that moving forward, any and everything else preceding it, goes in to the "round file". If it gets voted in, everybody (even those who vote NO) owns it and will have to live with it. At which point, if you feel strongly enough that you have been "wronged", feel free to get a lawyer (no problem, last I checked there were plenty of them) start writing checks and sue everybody and anybody in site! God Bless America! It's your RIGHT to do so, go for it.


seajay

My issue here is the fact that a party can toss an agreement out just by putting in a line in an agreement. What did the west say about it? Nothing, because they don't exist. USAPA should have been able to do the same with that logic but here we are.
I don't think it's that easy.