Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

No, read the MOU.(again). USAPA (the merger committee and administration compatible with it I would say), as far as the SLI is concerned, maintains its own existence until the SLI is complete.

Only until the completion of the SLI does the total existence of USAPA disappear. Why don't you call Holmes or Calveri and ask them. They'll tell you that.

Silly man. When the NMB declared usapa the bargaining agent how long did ALPA survive?

When the NMB declares the APA the bargaining agent how long do you think usapa gets to stick around? Is usapa somehow special?

The NMB does not care about seniority.

The APA will become the bargaining agent and will have to work within the APA structure and C&BL. Usapa will be bad history.

 

[Pi brat]

Most of you aren't idiots. You are empassioned about your desire to evade a final and binding arbitration and squash the PHX based pilots by any means possible (RICO, Address-Gate, etc.). You guys have argued & quoted portions of legal findings that seem to support your case. That's all.

We conversely seek to legally force you into the acceptance of that same legal, final & binding seniority list.

Carry on.

I don't think most east pilots want to squash west pilots, but through some USAPA actions I can see how that impression is given. But, as far as people quoting portions of the legal opinions wouldn't you say that both sides are guilty of that?

I have no problem with you fighting for what you think you are entitled to and I expect it to continue. I think it was the wrong path, but maybe in the end it will turn out to have been worth it for you.

 

[cleardirect]

The APA CANNOT SUBMIT ANY LIST BUT THEIR OWN. YOU ARE FLAT OUT WRONG.

They submit THEIR pilot list, NOT OURS!

Really, you're not that stupid, you're just screwing around....right?

Was it ALPA that submitted the east list to Nicolau?

You guys blamed ALPA national for submitting the wrong list?

We will be APA. If APA see liability to not using the Nicolau they will refuse to use it. Us airways APA can argue any method you want as long as that list is Nicolau. APA can't stop that. But us airways pilots will argue as APA pilots not usapa pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow, a 3 or 4 yr westie going ahead of 12 to 15 yr APA pilot, youu guys are very generous, why did you not put the TWA pilots ahead of all of you?

Dumb ass. There are no 3-4 year westies.

The west has not hired in 8 years.

 

[end_of_alpa]

That would be their own list! We submit our data and they order it as they wish. If they order our side using the Nicolau, then so be it. We can't stop them.
And THIS comes from the NAC directly. All we do is give them our list of pilots and they parse it and order it any way they want to.
Do you really think if we give them our data in DOH order that it has to stay that way?!?! Boy, you arent' kidding when you say you can't fix stupid.

All right, I get your point. They argue their list is better and we argue ours is better.

Then in that case we can argue to ratio OUR DOH list to ratio our pilots higher on the combined list than theirs, so then a 10 year US Airways pilot goes above a 20 year American pilot. Better yet, in arbitration, lets take the AWA position and ask the arbitrators to endtail American pilots. I mean, heck, our career expectations are better.

And besides, if what you said about the NAC saying that is true, I thought the NAC wasn't taking a position on seniority?

 

[Metroyet]

Bottom line, there is no way for USCABA to get to a JCBA with the APA without first triggering ripeness on an 8 year old merger first. That single carrier status the scabs just had to have has come back to bite. MOU or no MOU.

Seriously...in Essence what USTUPID is trying to sell is the idea that America West still hasn't been merged and they'll simply represent THAT airline too even though they have an unbroken, provable history of failing their mandated DFR to them...all the while ignoring the years old single carrier status and praying that nobody notices.

USAPA is nothing but one big bad faith conflict of interest. One way or another, Federal Courts are going to end this...and they'll be forced to weigh in before any representational changes. APA deserves to know exactly what they're getting into and how expensive it will be.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Was it ALPA that submitted the east list to Nicolau?

You guys blamed ALPA national for submitting the wrong list?

We will be APA. If APA see liability to not using the Nicolau they will refuse to use it. Us airways APA can argue any method you want as long as that list is Nicolau. APA can't stop that. But us airways pilots will argue as APA pilots not usapa pilots.

The APA can accept any list USAPA gives them if they want to. They can argue based on that list. But I think we're going to arbitration based on all this crap.

 

[Pi brat]

USAirways Pilots East and West, about to take the first offer. They always do. Never do they negotiate from a position of strength. Always they make the case for management. This is about the clearest cut case of management falling over themselves for the prize and payout of their lives. Meanwhile, the pilots on this board are about to sell themselves short. Typical. I would love to be on the other side of a real estate deal or car deal when you guys walk in. I would highball you and you would most likely take it, and make a statement that the dealership was entitled to a large markup.
Why don't you take some time and look at the video of the Pawn Stars. Maybe you can learn something about the art of negotiations. Remember, you are dealing with a company whose CEO has failed numerous times to succeed in a merger. He is in a flat out competition to run the company with Horton. He just booked record profits. And you guys are about to take a substandard offer. Unbelievable. NEVER TAKE THE FIRST OFFER.

It doesn't happen that often but I have to agree with cleardirect on this one. It isn't the first offer. I was ready to vote against MOU I as I think many east and west pilots were. They went back and got more, much more.

Pawnstars is a good analogy. Have you seen an episode when a guy walks into the store with something that he thinks is oh-so valuable only to have an expert come in and tell him that it's not? Well, that's were I think we are with this.

Now, that was a really good diversion from the topic, but back to the point. People would try to talk us out of voting for the MOU because of the CofC without knowing the value of the CofC, would they?

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think most east pilots want to squash west pilots, but through some USAPA actions I can see how that impression is given. But, as far as people quoting portions of the legal opinions wouldn't you say that both sides are guilty of that?

I have no problem with you fighting for what you think you are entitled to and I expect it to continue. I think it was the wrong path, but maybe in the end it will turn out to have been worth it for you.

Really. The east does want to squash the west.

A DOH list, dean Colello gains 1200 positions. Ken Holmes on the NAC loses 1650 positions. 200 of those were furloughed at the time of the merger. Holmes has been a captain for years. Is Colello a capt? No yet you think DOH does not harm the west. Delusional.

 

[Pi brat]

We will be APA. If APA see liability to not using the Nicolau they will refuse to use it.

Serious question. AA took over from TWA ALPA. Did they inherit the DFR liability for what transpired with the TWA/AA SLI?

 

[Pi brat]

Really. The east does want to squash the west.

A DOH list, dean Colello gains 1200 positions. Ken Holmes on the NAC loses 1650 positions. 200 of those were furloughed at the time of the merger. Holmes has been a captain for years. Is Colello a capt? No yet you think DOH does not harm the west. Delusional.

Take the blinders off and read. I said most east pilots. They see it as fair, not a squashing.

I have said that I understand your concerns with DOH. The merger committee has said the same thing and has asked for input on C&Rs.

 

[dca319]

All right, I get your point. They argue their list is better and we argue ours is better.

Thank you. And its good to see that you understand that negotiations between the APA and us are going to be pointless as we'll be arguing our methodology to the panel of arbitrators.

Then in that case we can argue to ratio OUR DOH list to ratio our pilots higher on the combined list than theirs, so then a 10 year US Airways pilot goes above a 20 year American pilot. Better yet, in arbitration, lets take the AWA position and ask the arbitrators to endtail American pilots. I mean, heck, our career expectations are better.

We tried something like that, remember? Gold standard, DOH, etc. Nicolau told us to move off of our position and we reiterated gold standard, DOH, etc. I hope we're a bit smarter going into this arbitration than the last time.

And besides, if what you said about the NAC saying that is true, I thought the NAC wasn't taking a position on seniority?

They sure are. In the CLT roadshow I attended, Dean was asked point blank what methodology we would be using when we submitted our proposed list and he answered, from the podium, "date of hire."
The info for the steps leading up to the list came from the APA and NAC in between presentations when a group of us were talking to them face to face.

 

[dca319]

The APA can accept any list USAPA gives them if they want to. They can argue based on that list. But I think we're going to arbitration based on all this crap.

Again, we don't give them a list per se, we give them data. That's it. The order in which they get it is irrelevant.

 

[EastUS1]

All the east a-holes must be divorced because if I told my wife that I voted no on a $30k pay raise based on principle....well lets just say that it would be a long time before I saw her naked again...yes you guessed it...because of principle

Wow! You've no idea what sorry volumes you've just spoken to all readers about yourself and your lovely bride's notions of both character and principled behavior. You've both my deepest sympathy there...seriously.

No matter, since you've missed the point of all expressed concerns completely. Let me put it as simply as possible here. It's my reasonable belief that more could be had from management at this time. It's glaringly obvious to any who actually read and consider the language of the MOU, that sufficent holes exist to sail entire fleets of lawyer-laden ships through. That last consideration's adequate reason alone for at least a re-write of the existing language, even if you're happy with the terms.

I'll now leave you to return to your wife, who can further instruct you on what supposed "principles" of yours you may need to disregard immediately, perhaps today, tomorrow, or whenever it suits her...And you've the temerity to assign the term "a-holes" to others? Ummm...Did she say it was ok for you to do that?

 

[Pi brat]

Explain...

Side note, have you all looked at what a windfall this will be for the LCC pilotgroup?

Based on retirements... in a coupe of years, a -current- East 320 captain will be making AT LEAST 100% more than he's making now based on the new contract and payrates going forward..

ya'll remember who made this possible.

Ok?

Did the potential merger perhaps give AA pilots to leverage to go back and get more than they could have absent it? I think so.

Raw US retirements outnumber AA retirements until 2018, for a much smaller pilot group. AA windfall?

In a couple of years an east 320 captain would be making about 50% more than today. Substantial, but not 100%.

And it's y'all. You remember your XXXX stinks too.