Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

Injunctions don't take long. Do you know what an injunction is Courtney?

No one will ever grant an injunction stopping the merger that will form the largest airline, you know better than that. It will go foward then you can file away.

 

[EastUS1]

ya'll remember who made this possible.

Ok?

You've stated that you're against this merger, so it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

 

[luvthe9]

Just another opinion...........................
Hello,
May I point out that Roland Wilder, ESQ extraordinaire, said on August 21,2012 to an open meeting,in reference to MOU 1, "take this deal,because in my 30 years of practice, I can tell this deal can be made." Now there is some fine opinion work worth $55,000 per month. If the BPR had not done their jobs, you would have not only been marched through the gate, you would have been slaughtered upon entrance. Upon personal conversation, Roland had no knowledge of our previous $ 8.8 billion in contributions and had not heard of LOA 93. I told him "Roland, this country is full of attorneys who tell their clients to take this deal because it can be made. These pilots need a fair deal and this is clearly not it". His answer " you have know choice, look what happened to the EAL pilots and APA has never been kind to any merged group." Amazing comments from our chosen Professional negotiator. That kind of advice can be attained for the price of a beer at a bar. How about thanking your reps for a thankless job, let Steve tell the truth, how can the truth be bad. Roland's warning letter will protect him. You are just not accustomed from hearing the whole truth lately. One has to wonder why the BPR voted to gag what happened at the meeting. All communication and challenges are good for the voters. I believe MOU2 is better, but far what could have been achieved. I do not settle for mediocrity and weak language personally, never have, never will. It has served me well for 55 years. I believe that success is seldom achieved by those that contemplate the possibility of failure. You didn't think they were going to make this easy did you? Fear and desperation is not a good reason to vote for or against anything. I never have liked "this is the best we can do." A good agreement has both sides groaning with equal pain. We have 8.8 billion dollars that saved USAir twice, AWE once and now AA to prove there is not equal pain in this agreement. Gary said we cannot look in the rear view mirror to move forward. That would cause a loss situational awareness, and that is what looks like what happened....again. Crimi is keeping the pilots aware of a situation that is not optimal, that is what he is paid for. Transparency is what we demanded when forming USAPA. We need to recall our history of secret ALPA methods that were used, where secret strategies, with false flags and blame put on other parties so the pilots will never know.
Keep up the good work Steve.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The language in this MOU is convoluted - no doubt. However, it is within the realm of possibility and reasonability that because of the underlying complexity of the issues, number of players involved and the interconnection of different documents, contracts, agreements, side letters and varying timelines - that a simple, easy to read document just wasn't possible. Which is what road shows and Q&A updates are designed for. Just go back and read our existing contract, or AA's and check out how lengthy each one is. Tolstoy tweets in comparison.

 

[dca319]

No one will ever grant an injunction stopping the merger that will form the largest airline, you know better than that. It will go foward then you can file away.

For a case with proven merit? You're absolutely 100% sure about that Courtney? I don't even think the company is sure you're right.

 

[cleardirect]

Take the blinders off and read. I said most east pilots. They see it as fair, not a squashing.

I have said that I understand your concerns with DOH. The merger committee has said the same thing and has asked for input on C&Rs.

We have given our input. There are no C&R That can make DOH fair.

Fair was decided by an arbitrator. Not east pilots.

 

[Zone5]

What will be USAPAS Legitimate Union Purpose for submitting anything but the Nic award? Think it can survive judicial review and injunction? The ripeness issue disappears as well. Of course USAPA will refuse to submit the Nic. That's what the courts are for. They'll do it for them. Nothing in the alphabet soup of latest documents relieves USAPA of its DFR, need for an LUP, trumps labor law, or diminishes the Rights of the West Pilot Class.

USAPA has utterly WASTED 1/3rd of a pilots working career on nothing but a temper tantrum. No matter what happens, USAPA is dead. That, we should all be able to agree, is nothing but a good thing.

USAPA is not dead, a fact. The NIC has never been, nor does it appear that it ever will be, IMPLEMENTED, period. Did I miss that East-West JCBA required for it's use? I think not, the ONLY way the "NIC Zombie" crawls its way, out of its grave, is if this merger does not happen. In which case, we all go back to the same talking points, the company sits on separate ops, raking in the profits and the beat goes on......with no NIC! Which by the way, would be just fine with me.


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

Serious question. AA took over from TWA ALPA. Did they inherit the DFR liability for what transpired with the TWA/AA SLI?

Who was the bargaining agent when TWA was denied their arbitration? That liability stayed with ALPA. That entity continued to exist. usapa will ne gone, the liability does not just disappear. We will be APA before our seniority arbitration begins. That means it is all on the APA.

 

[luvthe9]

I can’t help but draw comparisons to our Volant model with the vote on the MOU. Ladies and gentlemen, I understand the frustration of living under bankruptcy contracts and wages for over a decade. But realize that the company has used every possible weapon in their arsenal against us to continually delay our negotiations to keep us from attaining an industry standard contract. As a result of these efforts, they have managed our expectations downward so, when an offer--any offer-- is laid before us, it’s going to look good. But think logically on this: When have they ever negotiated in good faith with us? Why should we start trusting them now, especially with signing what amounts to nothing more than a blank check while waiving critical contractual protections? Look what they’ve done here: totally blew us off and performed an end run around to the AA pilots. We are being set up to go into a merger with a bankrupt airline without our own contract in place. Has it escaped anyone that the AA MOU has much better provisions in it for a bankrupt carrier than our own MOU from an airline that just posted record profits! And these financial gains are not due to the managerial prowess of Team Tempe. It’s a direct result of the enormous sacrifices of the employees, particularly the pilot group. But where is the pay back in the MOU for this? $40 million on a $6+ billion investment? That's just recycled MOU 1.0 and I consider it an insult. The vague language contained in the MOU is a recipe for disaster, especially with the company lawyers who get paid well to ensure any and all loopholes are exploited. And what about one of the most important items going forward--seniority? Are you willing to go into a merger with 2000 West and 10,000 AA pilots waiting to pick that fruit from the East tree? Look at the history of how seniority played out with AA merger partners in the past. Not a pretty picture. Do yourselves a favor and look past the dollar signs on the posted pay scales (are they really industry standard anyway?) and read the fine print in this MOU. Dig deeper than just looking at the pretty pictures and positive spin in the "Flight Plan to a Merger sales brochure” that Captain Rick LaMontagne so aptly describes. The company wants something from us that they can’t have without us giving it to them. Don’t vote to screw yourselves like we did with our pension! This will likely be the last contract for many of us. The fact that there might be a merger shouldn’t be part of the equation: the UCC is in the driver’s seat on that. The company is doing exactly what check airmen do in the CQT: task load you, add lots of attention diversions, and then give artificial time constraints in an attempt to lead you into the red. Do what you as professional pilots need to do to get back into the green by voting NO on this MOU!

 

[cleardirect]

No one will ever grant an injunction stopping the merger that will form the largest airline, you know better than that. It will go foward then you can file away.

An injunction will not stop a merger. An injunction would stop Parker from putting the pilot groups together. That is where the value is. That is what he needs to do quickly.

An injunction cost Parker. Not using the Nicolau costs Parker money.

 

[dca319]

..get back into the green by voting NO on this MOU!

And then what?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

....

Pawnstars is a good analogy. Have you seen an episode when a guy walks into the store with something that he thinks is oh-so valuable only to have an expert come in and tell him that it's not? Well, that's were I think we are with this.

I agree. Myself, when I read Swan's post, I was thinking of that gal that walked in wanting 250 bucks for a Rubik's cube, simply because it was in its 1985 packaging.

 

[Pi brat]

Who was the bargaining agent when TWA was denied their arbitration? That liability stayed with ALPA. That entity continued to exist. usapa will ne gone, the liability does not just disappear. We will be APA before our seniority arbitration begins. That means it is all on the APA.

That's not what the MOU says. It says that within 90 days the APA and USAPA will begin negotiations to develop an integrated seniority list. Within 4 months the petition will be made to the NMB for single carrier status. How can the APA forward a list when they may not represent us yet? Is it your OPINION that they will race through single carrier status first and if so, why do you think so?

So the APA would inherit the liability for something it didn't do, just because the organization that did it is no longer around? Ah, doesn't seem to make much sense.

I'm not saying how things will turn out, I just don't understand some of the logic being thrown around.

 

[dca319]

It doesn't happen that often but I have to agree with cleardirect on this one. It isn't the first offer. I was ready to vote against MOU I as I think many east and west pilots were. They went back and got more, much more.

Pawnstars is a good analogy. Have you seen an episode when a guy walks into the store with something that he thinks is oh-so valuable only to have an expert come in and tell him that it's not? Well, that's were I think we are with this.

Now, that was a really good diversion from the topic, but back to the point. People would try to talk us out of voting for the MOU because of the CofC without knowing the value of the CofC, would they?

The NAC has made it clear that the MOU has more value than the CoC.

 

[Pi brat]

Do what you as professional pilots need to do to get back into the green by voting NO on this MOU!

luv,

One of the steps in the CRM model is to suggest a solution to the problem you have brought up. So you say we are in the red with the MOU. Okay, give me a quick step by step view of what you think would happen.

I'll start you out. On Feb 8th the vote is tallied and the MOU is voted down. On Feb 9th AA decides to proceed with the merger. What then? What puts us in the green?

Forgive me if you have already done this, I was gone from here for a while.