Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

That's "Sire" to you kid.

"Sire" is a bit too Middle Ages and is too old a form of address - even for you.

 

[EastUS1]

"Sire" is a bit too Middle Ages and is a bit to old a form of address - even for you.

Well..at least be fair here! "Spartans" and "Knights" aren't exactly last week's news, so what's wrong with "Sire"..?

"...and is a bit to old a form of address - even for you."..? Why!..the nerve of some young ones these days! Just the other day at the jousts, well, no matter; I'll have you know that there's NO way you're to be put forth as anyone's squire now!

PS: If you're attempting to blend in at all...well...no east pilot I've ever known centers at least their every other thought around the nic.

 

[cactusboy53]

all,

Just had a Yes voter ask me if the system would allow more than 1 vote with last 1 being the 1 that counted.
I replied I had not cast mine yet so not sure.
Anyone know?

Btw, I voted for
DiOrio
Music
Pflanzer

FA

Shocking! "Highest Pay to the last day!" Oh wait, you aren't getting the highest pay. You can't fix stupid (but you can numb it up a bit).

You boys are the LAUGHING STALK of the commercial pilot industry.

 

[Pi brat]

You boys are the LAUGHING STALK of the commercial pilot industry.

What is that? Funny corn?

 

[cactusboy53]

What is that? Funny corn?

Apologies: laughingstock.

A couple of IPA's before sent. I'm pretty sure the point was made, Cornholio

 

[Beancounter]

I attended the road show in CLT yesterday and spent about an hour and a half listening to the presentation and questions. Talking with the others that were in attendance, it sounds like I missed the fireworks by a day.
I'm still stunned that some of us think that we have this sort of magical leverage over the company with CoC and scope. One former negotiator, and I can't remember his name, stood up and asked about using leverage to try and improve the MOU and finished with "I THINK we MIGHT have something with CoC." "Think" and "might", in my opinion, don't sound like words you use to describe one's leverage. We have a good deal of money on the table and there are still those of us out there who are looking around it at what I consider minutiae when looking at the vast improvements over LOA93. Say we go all in with CoC and lose - where do we end up? Status quo for 18-24 months. That's a tall price to pay. What's the worst thing to happen if we vote in the MOU? $200+ an hour G2 C/O in a few years. Better retirement. Retro pay and $10,000. And this MOU is only temporary. We'll be working on a JCBA in a few months and, from what I was told, any shortcomings our MOUs have will be addressed.
Some of our pilots are under the mistaken impression that they run the airline and it exists for the convenience. These guys really need to get over themselves. If a base shuts down or is downsized then you commute or move. Voting down an MOU because you want guarantees is ridiculous because we all know how quickly those guarantees disappear. Personally, this MOU is a no-brainer. We vote it down we continue the crap lifestyle we have now and Parker doesn't lose a wink of sleep.
As for the Nicolau, it was my understanding that USAPA submits two lists (east and west) to verify the pilots and then proposes the integration method to the other parties. I cannot imagine the APA even considering DOH when that will put almost 80% of our pilots in the top 50% of the combined list. They're going to fight that tooth and nail and you can bet the Leonidas guys are going to be waiting in the wings to pounce as well. The Nicolau may not be used (and with the way Szymanski remained neutral with his answers) but it sounds like DOH is going to send us into arbitration in less than one face to face meeting. The Nicolau may not be used but it sounds like some sort of slotting will be used. These arbitrators aren't going to undercut one of their own to make us happy.
I talked to about 20 or so pilots before I left and all but two were voting for the MOU. The other two seemed to think there was more to be had even after Dean told them that was it. You can see how we ended up with LOA93 with our overreaching and our attempt to outthink the company. No one can be so naive as to think that Parker and his legal team haven't gone through all the scenarios involving CoC to think it'll be an issue. And even if it is possible to trigger CoC, as Woody stated, it'll take a long time for the company to lose.
Crimi and McKee were in attendance as well. I can't wait to recall those smug idiots.

Nice, really good post. I'd love to stay on and type more, but I've got a sick little one. The poor little guy has it coming out both ends, yuck Kinda like some posters on here, east and west

Bean

 

[dca319]

I'm probably going to regret this. I said I was leaving and I did, just tuned in every once in a while to check on the usual subjects.

I've been reading the opinions on the MOU. I wasn't able to attend the road show, so I've asked for a summary of what was presented from friends and have been reading other's opinions.

I don't get the angst about the equity that the AA pilots are getting. From what I understand I have to agree with AAviatior. That stake was negotiated in their chp 11 negotiations with AA. They have nothing to do with the merger, it's compensation for what they lost. They will get that stake whether we merge or not. So, if we don't merge the get approx. 15% of the new stock. If we do merge, AA stake holders get around 70% of the new AA and US shareholders will get around 30%(%s to be determined). So the AA pilots will get 15% of the 70% of the new AA, or about the same as they would absent a merger. We are not entitled to that. Back in 2004 we negotiated LOA 93 with two 35 million dollar payouts and stock options. In 2005 our POR upheld those payouts, but west pilots were not entitled to a share, were they? The AA pilots had the power/luck to get more than we did. If the merger is successful, their % of the company may be worth more. Good for them. The US/AW merger raised the value of our stock options. If I remember correctly I received about $30,0000 in stock option and lump sum payouts that west pilots didn't get.

Concessions in the MOU. There certainly are some, like the reserve guarantee and life insurance. Seems to be more for west pilots than east. But, every contract I have seen at the company, except maybe the first one at PI, has had some concession to it. On the whole, a MOU led contract will have much more give than take.

COC. Yes, I believe it has value, just not enough to rely on it. Let's say we turn down the MOU, a merger goes through and we press COC. The company will drag it out in court and even if we do win we will only get the rates until the APA takes over and renegotiates a new joint contract.

Fire away.

Sounds like we talked to the same people.

 

[EastUS1]

You can't fix stupid (but you can numb it up a bit).

You boys are the LAUGHING STALK of the commercial pilot industry.

Apologies: laughingstock.

A couple of IPA's before sent. I'm pretty sure the point was made, Cornholio

Ummm...."You can't fix stupid (but you can numb it up a bit)."? Closely followed by "Apologies:.....A couple of IPA's before sent."...?

Folks...You just could not EVER even begin to make this kind of stuff up....

 

[cactusboy53]

You can't fix stupid (but you can numb it up a bit).

You boys are the LAUGHING STALK of the commercial pilot industry.



Ummm...."You can't fix stupid (but you can numb it up a bit)."? Closely followed by "Apologies:.....A couple of IPA's before sent."...?

Folks...You just could not EVER even begin to make this kind of stuff up....

I still can't match the hypetbole that proceeds from you Spud. Happy Trails Skippy.

 

[EastUS1]

I still can't match the hypetbole that proceeds from you Spud. Happy Trails Skippy.

Not to worry, as there's really no need to fret over any perceived, personal difficulties with any umm..."hypetbole" anyway. Happy trails to you as well pilgrim.

 

[Pi brat]

Apologies: laughingstock.

A couple of IPA's before sent. I'm pretty sure the point was made, Cornholio

Yeah, that you are an ass. You guys think that the east pilots are the only ones being laughed at. Yeah, you're right, you can fix stupid.

 

[Zone5]

All this discussion about the value of COC and min fleet is really pretty simple to quantify, if indeed they were of no consequence to "Team Tempe", MOU-2 would have been a carbon copy of MOU-1, with loss of COC and min fleet removed. There's a reason they were left in there and the overall deal was significantly sweetened, I submit that we have already used them as significant leverage and have realized meaningful gains in the proposed "New" MOU.

The question at this point is whether or not the current proposed deal is a fair and reasonable trade for giving it up and that's the "64,000 dollar question" so to speak, that everyone has to answer for themselves.


seajay

 

[end_of_alpa]

I attended the road show in CLT yesterday and spent about an hour and a half listening to the presentation and questions. Talking with the others that were in attendance, it sounds like I missed the fireworks by a day.
I'm still stunned that some of us think that we have this sort of magical leverage over the company with CoC and scope. One former negotiator, and I can't remember his name, stood up and asked about using leverage to try and improve the MOU and finished with "I THINK we MIGHT have something with CoC." "Think" and "might", in my opinion, don't sound like words you use to describe one's leverage. We have a good deal of money on the table and there are still those of us out there who are looking around it at what I consider minutiae when looking at the vast improvements over LOA93. Say we go all in with CoC and lose - where do we end up? Status quo for 18-24 months. That's a tall price to pay. What's the worst thing to happen if we vote in the MOU? $200+ an hour G2 C/O in a few years. Better retirement. Retro pay and $10,000. And this MOU is only temporary. We'll be working on a JCBA in a few months and, from what I was told, any shortcomings our MOUs have will be addressed.
Some of our pilots are under the mistaken impression that they run the airline and it exists for the convenience. These guys really need to get over themselves. If a base shuts down or is downsized then you commute or move. Voting down an MOU because you want guarantees is ridiculous because we all know how quickly those guarantees disappear. Personally, this MOU is a no-brainer. We vote it down we continue the crap lifestyle we have now and Parker doesn't lose a wink of sleep.
As for the Nicolau, it was my understanding that USAPA submits two lists (east and west) to verify the pilots and then proposes the integration method to the other parties. I cannot imagine the APA even considering DOH when that will put almost 80% of our pilots in the top 50% of the combined list. They're going to fight that tooth and nail and you can bet the Leonidas guys are going to be waiting in the wings to pounce as well. The Nicolau may not be used (and with the way Szymanski remained neutral with his answers) but it sounds like DOH is going to send us into arbitration in less than one face to face meeting. The Nicolau may not be used but it sounds like some sort of slotting will be used. These arbitrators aren't going to undercut one of their own to make us happy.
I talked to about 20 or so pilots before I left and all but two were voting for the MOU. The other two seemed to think there was more to be had even after Dean told them that was it. You can see how we ended up with LOA93 with our overreaching and our attempt to outthink the company. No one can be so naive as to think that Parker and his legal team haven't gone through all the scenarios involving CoC to think it'll be an issue. And even if it is possible to trigger CoC, as Woody stated, it'll take a long time for the company to lose.
Crimi and McKee were in attendance as well. I can't wait to recall those smug idiots.

The MOU has many facets that leave open holes needed to be resolved in the JCBA with a single arbitrator to resolve it (paragraph 20). Except for seniority and the 87 mill increase in valuation this provision rules.

Only you as individuals can determine yes or no.

But DCA319 opinion of seniority resolution is entirely off the mark and shear misinterpretation of the MOU.

If the MOU is voted in, the trigger is BK judge approval of POR with merger.

The "lists" are simply the data both AA and US have on its pilot employees. TWO lists.

All prior agreements/status quo are nul and void....PERIOD.

You are entitled to your opinion, but as I've said before the argument between AA and US WILL be DOH (with possible adjustments for longevity employment) and possibility other restrictions like fences. However the heavy retirement attrition needs to be addressed on the US side because if there is a list that restricts AA access to that attrition you could very well be promoting pilots hired after the merger to cover that attrition by fencing.

But make no mistake, what happens AFTER the window when arbitration begins the argument should change because the "fair and equitable" standard applies. That is where the known goes into the unknown.

It's a double edged sword and USAPA has a lot of ammunition to bear in arguing in arbitration.

As far as the arbitrators not undercutting one of his own your simple lack of understanding of how arbitration works is revealing.

That "arbitration" cannot be "presented" because the MOU specifically states so in paragraph 4. Second, nobody is afraid of a lawsuit. There's too much money involved with the merger and the MOU addresses it. Arbitrators will not reach out side the argument to make "their homey" whole. It simply doesn't work like that and by doing so could cause that very arbitration to be appealed.

Everyone has reservations about the MOU but Pat is trying to avoid talking about the 10000 pound gorilla in the room for obvious reasons. We can figure it out in 60 days or everyone can take their chances in arbitration. Arbitrators can't tell you how to fly your planes, why should give them the keys to YOUR destiny?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Personally, this MOU is a no-brainer. We vote it down we continue the crap lifestyle we have now and Parker doesn't lose a wink of sleep.

I disagree. Parker wants this bad. I think the UCC has also run Parker's numbers and they see what a powerhouse AA can be with US paired up. They also know that AA can't effectively compete with UAL and DAL route structure, and deliveries are too slow to grow to that size...meantime, the premium fliers are adding points to UAL and DAL FF accounts (it's really hard to get them back.)

As for the Nicolau, it was my understanding that USAPA submits two lists (east and west) to verify the pilots and then proposes the integration method to the other parties. I cannot imagine the APA even considering DOH when that will put almost 80% of our pilots in the top 50% of the combined list. They're going to fight that tooth and nail and you can bet the Leonidas guys are going to be waiting in the wings to pounce as well. The Nicolau may not be used (and with the way Szymanski remained neutral with his answers) but it sounds like DOH is going to send us into arbitration in less than one face to face meeting. The Nicolau may not be used but it sounds like some sort of slotting will be used.

I agree. USAPA is in a difficult position here. The C&B-Ls require that they support DOH with C&Rs, but it is truly a non-starter in negotiations and mediation, and will likely not be seriously entertained in arbitration. The Nicolau list will die once the MTA is inked. But the final list, no matter how attained, will be slotted IMHO. What the east pilots have won in this 7 year mess is that the snapshot looks oh-so-much-more favorably now than it did when Nicolau examined the flawed lists (and the east Merger Committee let it ride.)

These arbitrators aren't going to undercut one of their own to make us happy.

I disagree. How do you know that the arbitrators out there don't think Nicolau screwed up? Do you really think every arbitrator agrees with every arbitration every time? That's absurd. My perception of them is that, as a group, they are somewhat prima donnas. I'll bet a lot of them think they could have done a better job than Nicolau.

I talked to about 20 or so pilots before I left and all but two were voting for the MOU. The other two seemed to think there was more to be had even after Dean told them that was it. You can see how we ended up with LOA93 with our overreaching and our attempt to outthink the company. No one can be so naive as to think that Parker and his legal team haven't gone through all the scenarios involving CoC to think it'll be an issue. And even if it is possible to trigger CoC, as Woody stated, it'll take a long time for the company to lose.

I'm sure Parker and his legal team have gone through every scenario they can think of to get around CoC. But...they're still looking for us to give it away. I think it's because every scenario they thought of leads to large monetary damages. It may very well take along time for the company to lose. But when they do, the courts will force them to pay up.

I really don't think it would come to that, though. The UCC obviously sees CoC as a threat, and its survival would move them back to the table. That's all I expect would happen...some improvements to the MOU.

Crimi and McKee were in attendance as well. I can't wait to recall those smug idiots.

We'll see, won't we? Recalls are not usually as cut-and-dried as you seem to think. I question the status you present here. You present as a DCA 319 pilot by your login name, but you say that you "can't wait to recall" those CLT reps. Do DCA pilots now get to vote in CLT elections?

 

[AAviator]

No arbitrator will undo what another arbitrator has done.

LUP, or lack there of will prevail.