Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Well now it seems some of Gary's inner circle are turning on him over this MOU, they realize that this thing is so full of holes, one of the big one is the healthcare we on the east are paying close to 600 a month for the top family plan while you westies pay quite a bit less, but if this passes you west guys will be paying up to 3 to 4 hundred a month, not to mention the extra vacation you will get (not).
 
[background=transparent]To the Charlotte Pilots: [/background]


[background=transparent]I have been paying attention to the comments of the American pilots and have noticed how impressed they are with our 3 CLT REPS sticking their necks out to get us a better deal. Many of the comments state "That is who we need running OUR union". [/background]


[background=transparent]What kind of signal would you like to send the American Pilots now?[/background]


[background=transparent]1) We believe in our reps and we will have a stronger union going forward. We will strive for DOH and work diligently to finalize our PBGC with a positive outcome. We are a proud group and we believe we are worthy of the highest pay in the industry.[/background]


[background=transparent]or[/background]


[background=transparent]2) We don't like that our Reps stuck their necks out and got us extra money. We are not worthy of this and we believe the first MOU was good enough. Also, since we believe we are an inferior group, we will take whatever seniority you believe is fair. [/background]


[background=transparent]The choice is ours.[/background]
 
Good letter.....Been reading some of your recent letters forwarded and have total agreement with most all the viewpoints.
Please spread the word that IMO each one of us needs to guesstimate the income increase at ED and ED to jcba and consider that a best case mou outcome .
Then do a risk / reward analysis of continuing on our current track as is.
I think with the correct union emphasis on getting our own long past due contract in arbitration compared to industry standards could & should surpass the number generated above. In addition we have still in our arsenal the COC and attrition to benefit ourselves .
It's really quite basic negotiation understanding that the opponent desiring deal most is at a disadvantage .
If I represent the average pilot here, then we are firmly in the drivers seat.
Last I checked we were still in LCC contract negotiations.
I did not vote on changing direction to mou ONLY negotiations with a BK carrier.
Screw the opponent(s) self serving imposed time constraints.
If the CCC is calling the shots then COC current language will either kill the current crated deal or simply generate a new one. Not my call and I simply don't give a ####.
My vote is NO

Ps.... Share at will
 
Bill,

Just cast my NO vote for this insult. Reminds me of Wimpy from the Popeye cartoons: "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."
 
end_of_alpa said:
The MOU has many facets that leave open holes needed to be resolved in the JCBA with a single arbitrator to resolve it (paragraph 20). Except for seniority and the 87 mill increase in valuation this provision rules.

Only you as individuals can determine yes or no.

But DCA319 opinion of seniority resolution is entirely off the mark and shear misinterpretation of the MOU.

If the MOU is voted in, the trigger is BK judge approval of POR with merger.

The "lists" are simply the data both AA and US have on its pilot employees. TWO lists.

All prior agreements/status quo are nul and void....PERIOD.

You are entitled to your opinion, but as I've said before the argument between AA and US WILL be DOH (with possible adjustments for longevity employment) and possibility other restrictions like fences. However the heavy retirement attrition needs to be addressed on the US side because if there is a list that restricts AA access to that attrition you could very well be promoting pilots hired after the merger to cover that attrition by fencing.

But make no mistake, what happens AFTER the window when arbitration begins the argument should change because the "fair and equitable" standard applies. That is where the known goes into the unknown.

It's a double edged sword and USAPA has a lot of ammunition to bear in arguing in arbitration.

As far as the arbitrators not undercutting one of his own your simple lack of understanding of how arbitration works is revealing.

That "arbitration" cannot be "presented" because the MOU specifically states so in paragraph 4. Second, nobody is afraid of a lawsuit. There's too much money involved with the merger and the MOU addresses it. Arbitrators will not reach out side the argument to make "their homey" whole. It simply doesn't work like that and by doing so could cause that very arbitration to be appealed.

Everyone has reservations about the MOU but Pat is trying to avoid talking about the 10000 pound gorilla in the room for obvious reasons. We can figure it out in 60 days or everyone can take their chances in arbitration. Arbitrators can't tell you how to fly your planes, why should give them the keys to YOUR destiny?
Click to expand...

You must have missed the chart from the NAC. The APA has their own attrition. A lot more attrition than US Airways so they yes attrition will be a factor but it will be APA arguing that US Airways pilots should not get their attrition not the other way around.

usapa can try and make the argument of DOH but just like before it does not work. The APA is going to push back hard on DOH.

So what is it going to be? That usapa represents ALL us airways pilots and the west is just along for the ride? Or does the west get a seat at the arbitration table?

If usapa says no west representation DFR.
If the west gets a seat at the table we present the Nicolau list and judge Silvers ruling that there must be a LUP to use anything other than the Nicolau.

No arbitrators don't tell you how to fly the airplane. They tell you how to put seniority list together.

The usapa C&BL took the decision and ability of negotiating out of their hands. usapa has already turned over our destiny to the arbitrators. You east guys just can't help yourselves.
 
I have always held the belief that it will be American surviving and any agreement we sign now that provides relief for this merger will haunt us just as giving away our pension on false pretenses has.

This came out today:
AAMRQ.PK
(Reuters) - Shares in Bombardier Inc (BBD-B.TO) fell on Thursday on news that rival planemaker Embraer (EMBR3.SA) had landed a large order to supply regional jets in the U.S. market, traditionally a strong market for Bombardier.
Brazil's Embraer on Thursday clinched a deal worth up to $4 billion to supply larger regional jets for American Airlines' regional network.
Embraer and Republic Airways Holdings Inc (RJET) signed a contract for 47 E-175 jets, with an option to acquire an additional 47 aircraft. The new aircraft will be operated by Republic under AMR Corp's (AAMRQ.PK) American Eagle brand.

 
http://www.operationorange.org/2012/06/a-declaration-of-war/ It looks as if Silva is targeting the North American market, with 2350 new jets. How does that compare to the entire R-J lift now being operated? The ONLY WAY that happens is if United, Delta, and American succeed in carving out the scope clauses in their contracts, which means that if you are flying what is considered “mainline” aircraft today, you will be likely furloughed out to fly in one of many outsourcing operations that will all bid against one another for work.
........................................AMR Corp is in bankruptcy court arguing that their pilots do too much flying and that they need to outsource anywhere between 400-1400 jobs (depending if the source is under oath) to save their once great airline. Once the scope protections are eliminated by the enormously one-sided bankruptcy procedure in the United States, AMR will contract to buy larger jets for its outsourcing operation, American Eagle.
 
end_of_alpa said:
You are wrong. Again, read the MOU.
Click to expand...

I cannot find anything in the MOU that mentions anything about the fact that the pilots in the service of AAA and the pilots in the service of AWA entered into a binding arbitration that was completed and accepted by the company, and is to date the only accepted system seniority list to use for any combined operations of those pilot groups.


Also, can't find anything in the MOU that trumps federal law.


What I can see in the MOU is that SLI is intentionally left out, to be determined at a later date.

Bottom line there,,,,,the LCC pilots ranking will not change one iota in relation to the Nic, unless of course the West is moved up relative to the east.

The point everybody is missing with the new "snapshot" is the current snapshot includes the NIc!
 
AAviator said:
No arbitrator will undo what another arbitrator has done.

LUP, or lack there of will prevail.
Click to expand...

It is termed an internal union dispute with regard to seniority. It is nothing like an arbitration between an employer and a union or an employee. There is a big difference. As you have to see, the Nicolau was not able to be bound on USAPA. It would have happened long ago. How about the other arbitrated decisions that took place between the Nicolau and now, say the LOA 93 decision. Binding. Get it yet aviator? Your opinion on LUP is just as flawed.
I imagine your West pals have fed you the same flawed ideas they hold. They have paid millions for bad advice. Here is the 9th court of Appeals decision for you. Enjoy the education. The final proposal from USAPA may include fences and protections the West will agree to. Time will tell.


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3
 
Black Swan said:
It is termed an internal union dispute with regard to seniority. It is nothing like an arbitration between an employer and a union or an employee. There is a big difference. As you have to see, the Nicolau was not able to be bound on USAPA. It would have happened long ago. How about the other arbitrated decisions that took place between the Nicolau and now, say the LOA 93 decision. Binding. Get it yet aviator? Your opinion on LUP is just as flawed.
I imagine your West pals have fed you the same flawed ideas they hold. They have paid millions for bad advice. Here is the 9th court of Appeals decision for you. Enjoy the education. The final proposal from USAPA may include fences and protections the West will agree to. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

First, uscaba is bound by the Nic, in that it is the current system seniority list for the pilots they represent.

Can uscaba rearrange the seniority list at LCC and negotiate a different list, best have a LUP and be ready for the suit that would follow.


Even Seeham realized this. He said..." we will offer a DOH list in exchange for labor peace".....which BTW is not a LUP, so he had an answere for that also....."but DFRs are sooo hard to win".

Problem for uscaba is the West then won in district court, and the 9th merely said, not ripe til their is a JCBA. You do realize that had there been a JCBA, we would now have completed the damages trial and be under the Nic right?

You are right that there is a difference between an arbitration for minor disputes and major disputes.

uscaba's failure to use the Nic is a major dispute, federal courts have jurisdiction to enforce status quo rights during negotiations.
 
nic4us said:
I cannot find anything in the MOU that mentions anything about the fact that the pilots in the service of AAA and the pilots in the service of AWA entered into a binding arbitration that was completed and accepted by the company, and is to date the only accepted system seniority list to use for any combined operations of those pilot groups.


Also, can't find anything in the MOU that trumps federal law.


What I can see in the MOU is that SLI is intentionally left out, to be determined at a later date.

Bottom line there,,,,,the LCC pilots ranking will not change one iota in relation to the Nic, unless of course the West is moved up relative to the east.

The point everybody is missing with the new "snapshot" is the current snapshot includes the NIc!
Click to expand...
Obviously reading comprehension is not one of your strengths.
From the MOU:

h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10.
And what are the seniority lists currently in effect????
Did I hear you say, "...not the Nic..."???
 
First, uscaba is bound by the Nic, in that it is the current system seniority list for the pilots they represent.
WRONG.
Can uscaba rearrange the seniority list at LCC and negotiate a different list, best have a LUP and be ready for the suit that would follow.
THREE WAY.
Even Seeham realized this. He said..." we will offer a DOH list in exchange for labor peace".....which BTW is not a LUP, so he had an answere for that also....."but DFRs are sooo hard to win".
WHO? SEEHAM NOT EMPLOYED BY USAPA
Problem for uscaba is the West then won in district court, and the 9th merely said, not ripe til their is a JCBA. You do realize that had there been a JCBA, we would now have completed the damages trial and be under the Nic right?
VACATED DECISION - NOT VALID.
You are right that there is a difference between an arbitration for minor disputes and major disputes.
YEP
uscaba's failure to use the Nic is a major dispute, federal courts have jurisdiction to enforce status quo rights during negotiations.
MOU, IF RATIFIED, ALL PARTIES AGREE TO SET ASIDE PREVIOUS AGREEMENTS.
 
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