Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

I wonder if the professional negotiator advises the NAC to view the company's "final" proposal as if it were their own finished magnifisent creation, rather than a company proposal. Some seem to ascribe to the NAC a possesiveness of "their MOU painting", akin to Rembrandt, Picasso, or Monet.

Are we in the museum? Ooooohh, aaaahhh.

Are we voting on a company proposal or a USAPA masterpiece? If it should be the latter then no wonder the cupcakes want to jump in front, claim credit, and argue for a recall all at the same time.

 

[A320 Driver]

5- symanski seems to be having issues discussing Nic in direct questioning from those who put supper on his table

FA

I was at one of the CLT meetings yesterday. I think they were deliberately trying to avoid talking about the NIC so the focus could remain on the MOU and any questions people might have regarding it. One thing that was stated without ambiguity and with the consent of all of those presenting, including the APA reps, was that if this MOU is accepted, and if there is a merger, then the Transition Agreement that currently governs the merger between EAST and WEST ceases to exist at the POR and is superseded by the new Transition Agreement that the MOU folds into. All that being said, it is the current Transition Agreement in which the NIC is found that agreement completely goes away at the POR. All agreed that nothing will be left of it, Pat included. The general feeling is that the West can sue once the new SLI is complete. They will have to sue the APA and the New American Airlines over the contract language. Driver...

 

[fatherabraham]

The East pilots would have achieved an increase closer to 25-25%.

Just sayin'...

CB,

Thx for the early morning humor
Or this never furloughed could have been on the street these past years.
Did you have a point?

Btw.....25-25= ZERO
Just sayin'...

FA

 

[fatherabraham]

I was at one of the CLT meetings yesterday. I think they were deliberately trying to avoid talking about the NIC so the focus could remain on the MOU and any questions people might have regarding it. One thing that was stated without ambiguity and with the consent of all of those presenting, including the APA reps, was that if this MOU is accepted, and if there is a merger, then the Transition Agreement that currently governs the merger between EAST and WEST ceases to exist at the POR and is superseded by the new Transition Agreement that the MOU folds into. All that being said, it is the current Transition Agreement in which the NIC is found that agreement completely goes away at the POR. All agreed that nothing will be left of it, Pat included. The general feeling is that the West can sue once the new SLI is complete. They will have to sue the APA and the New American Airlines over the contract language. Driver...

Driver,

thx for going and sharing.

As i alluded to in post #4146, I think it a bit fishy that the westies are not protesting very loudly .

Their rep CactusBoy recently posted and seems to be lurking yet NOT a whimper to be heard.

FA

 

[crazystnic]

East,

Was purposely vague as only have 2nd hand info to go on.
Will have to leave it at that for now.
Just going off other(s) notes from clt meeting.

FA

PAT S said in open session at the CLT meeting that a DOH list would be proffered.
I also talked to him after and he said the same thing.
No ambiguity.

 

[crazystnic]

Actually had ALPA remained the collective bargaining agent and you accepted the Nicolau as the seniority list, we would had completed our first post merger contract in early 2008 garnering the West pilots with a 10-11% increase in wage. The East pilots would have achieved an increase closer to 25-25%.

Not withstanding a SECOND post merger contract, that means LOA93 would now be a distant painful event in your financial history.

Just sayin'...

yeah and all your boys would be taking the capt positions from our 88 hires who are just finally taking them after many years.
NO THANKS

 

[fatherabraham]

PAT S said in open session at the CLT meeting that a DOH list would be proffered.
I also talked to him after and he said the same thing.
No ambiguity.

Crazy,

What I'm mostly hearing. Never forget......he's an attorney and his lips were moving.
Below an insert from a " famous " note taker at clt meeting:

"Seniority. The 2000 lb Guerrilla in the room. As soon as the first question was asked about seniority, Syzmanski jumped to his feet and told Dean he would answer this question and then told the crowd he would not answer the question. Typical attorney

Last night in the P4P phone conference, when asked that very question Syzmanski riled about the Date of Hire provision and even made the remark that didn't Date of Hire already cause you guys enough problems (this is not verbatim)? He did apologize later when he realized he created a firestorm during that conference with those remarks. But now you understand my concern.

There is only one list that we will accept. That is the combined list of the former America West pilots and the East pilots. Not two lists. Here is what I think could be happening. A deal might have been made with our officers that promises that if the west pilots will support the MOU, then the BPR will vote to send two separate lists to the APA. This could give for example, a 2003 date of hire on the west the possibility of being ahead of a 1985 hire East pilot. If there are three lists that go to arbitration, under the McCaskill/ Bond all three lists may be considered equal and could well be merged based on relative position. In effect, this gives the west the Nic without calling it the Nic."

FA

 

[nic4us]

That's what you have been told for some time now. Too bad you let Clear and Nic4us lead you down their fantasy path. Their fantasy was fully grasping and spinning anything they could get their grubby little hands on.
breeze

Breeze, when all is said and done, and the order of the LCC pilots falls in line with Nic, I am not even going to bother to say I told you so.

But, I might frequently remind the east that had you idiots not been the constant whiners, we would have come out much better when mixed with the AMR pilots.

 

[nic4us]

Crazy,

What I'm mostly hearing. Never forget......he's an attorney and his lips were moving.
Below an insert from a " famous " note taker at clt meeting:

"Seniority. The 2000 lb Guerrilla in the room. As soon as the first question was asked about seniority, Syzmanski jumped to his feet and told Dean he would answer this question and then told the crowd he would not answer the question. Typical attorney

Last night in the P4P phone conference, when asked that very question Syzmanski riled
about the Date of Hire provision and even made the remark that didn't Date of Hire already cause you guys enough problems (this is not verbatim)? He did apologize later when he realized he created a firestorm during that conference with those remarks. But now you understand my concern.

There is only one list that we will accept. That is the combined list of the former America
West pilots and the East pilots. Not two lists. Here is what I think could be happening. A deal might have been made with our officers that promises that if the west pilots will support the MOU, then the BPR will vote to send two separate lists to the APA. This could give for example, a 2003 date of hire on the west the possibility of being ahead of a 1985 hire East pilot. If there are three lists that go to arbitration, under the McCaskill/ Bond all
three lists may be considered equal and could well be merged based on relative position. In effect, this gives the west the Nic without calling it the Nic."

FA

Holy cow!

An east pilot with a clue.

Let's say you wanted to solve the Nic issue. The best way is to not use the Nic and satisfy the usapa/east pilots and do a MB arbitration. Then the arbitration panel returns a list in which the West pilots remain or move up in relation to east pilots per their position on the Nic.

Problem solved. nic not used, but West has no desire or reason to sue.


Let's take a look at some facts. The MOU in many areas cost the West. The West is still owed 757 and 190 seats. The West has been locked out of the A330 growth, and is owed a portion of that. And, there is still the fact that the Nic is a binding arbitration between the east pilots and the West pilots, regardless of who represents them.

Yup, the West would end up advancing relative to the Nic if it goes to arbitration. The east/usapa would be wiser to go in with the Nic as their position.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

FA said: "Here is what I think could be happening. A deal might have been made with our officers that promises that if the west pilots will support the MOU, then the BPR will vote to send two separate lists to the APA."

Wow, just making stuff up now. And in the same move manage to accuse our Officers of making back room seniority deals. You must really hate Hummel.

I see you are VERY unhappy with reserve guarantee going down three hours. Does the higher pay rate, a better call out time, more days off, and the ability to call out of time at 85 even matter? Probably not, you are so busy making up fantasies about back room deals you are not even paying attention.

Greeter

 

[fatherabraham]

FA said: "Here is what I think could be happening. A deal might have been made with our officers that promises that if the west pilots will support the MOU, then the BPR will vote to send two separate lists to the APA."

Wow, just making stuff up now. And in the same move manage to accuse our Officers of making back room seniority deals. You must really hate Hummel.

I see you are VERY unhappy with reserve guarantee going down three hours. Does the higher pay rate, a better call out time, more days off, and the ability to call out of time at 85 even matter? Probably not, you are so busy making up fantasies about back room deals you are not even paying attention.

Greeter

MK,

Now your getting pathetic.
I CLEARLY said from a clt note taker and posted quotes.


Are you stupid or what ???

FA

 

[nevergiveup]

Holy cow!

An east pilot with a clue.

Let's say you wanted to solve the Nic issue. The best way is to not use the Nic and satisfy the usapa/east pilots and do a MB arbitration. Then the arbitration panel returns a list in which the West pilots remain or move up in relation to east pilots per their position on the Nic.

Problem solved. nic not used, but West has no desire or reason to sue.


Let's take a look at some facts. The MOU in many areas cost the West. The West is still owed 757 and 190 seats. The West has been locked out of the A330 growth, and is owed a portion of that. And, there is still the fact that the Nic is a binding arbitration between the east pilots and the West pilots, regardless of who represents them.

Yup, the West would end up advancing relative to the Nic if it goes to arbitration. The east/usapa would be wiser to go in with the Nic as their position.

Some of the senior west might be better off with doh. I really don't see how USAPA can go in with anything other than representing 2 lists as that is what exists in the event a merger happens and a snap shot is taken. However, I can live with doh and 3 way fences as well. Wake me up when it is all done.

 

[Phoenix]

MK,

Now your getting pathetic.
I CLEARLY said from a clt note taker and posted quotes.


Are you stupid or what ???

FA

Shush yo' mouf childrens, it's fine art and the appropriate response is "ooohhh, aaaaahhh".

APA has announced relative position, the MOU stipulates conditions for the arbitrator to have relative position, and people castigate you for expecting a move afoot for relative position?

Never mind... Ooooohhhh, aaaahhhh, wow. Did you see the pay rates? (For folks that don't get displaced to a smaller plane at a different base, like Crandall told already)

 

[Phoenix]

....

 

[cactusboy53]

yeah and all your boys would be taking the capt positions from our 88 hires who are just finally taking them after many years.
NO THANKS

Oh, I see. You're saying that the possibility of any "westie" taking "your upgrade" (don't forget, your airline died in Sept. 2007) is worth more than $170,000 in your pocket (based on furloughed AAA pilot now upgrading to Emb190 captain)? It's worth the retiring A330 captain's loss of $650,000-$750,000?

I completely understand now (NOT). Carry on (as you always do).

CB