traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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No need to pity me. I'm not the one perpetrating lies so that I can justify my current state of affairs. Time to move on and be accountable for our situation instead of blaming anyone and everyone. USAPA has been a huge failure and it has cost us dearly.
And the last thing I will ever be is jealous of you. I don't think anyone can sink that low.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Thanks to you and the neg comm for all the time you spent during the Christmas holidays on this MOU. This is a starting framework that needs extensive changes before any East or AWA pilot will sign it.
At a minimum these points should be explain to the US AIR and AWA pilots , they make no sense.
This entire MOU is open ended with no penalty explanation if something does not happen on the time frame the company wants.
Also on the pay issue, we need a clause that "no executive or employee at American will have any raise or salary increase that exceeds the increase of a AA pilot "
Meaning if we are given a 3% raise that no employee group, union or not executive or not will not get any raise above our same percentage.
Also no bonus or profit sharing to any group unless we get the same.
Para 4: "will take some time to be implemented" what time frame and what penalty do we charge the company if this is exceeded ? Must be more specific.
Para 7: "not more than $ 1.5 reimbursement" and "not to exceed $4 million" . There should be no limit on the amount we are reimbursed for merger expenses.
Para 8 (a) : "eventual operation" need time frame and what the penalty will be if we are not together as one airline.
Para 8 ( B) : list of aircraft. Agreement must call for a full time pilot assigned and paid by the company to watch over this list as his only job for the next 5 years . The company will try every trick there is to have aircraft in and out of the system being painted or long term maintenance and will extend leases to other carriers , they will delay orders etc.
When we ask if tail # XXX is or is out of the fleet they will ignore us and never give a clear answer.
We need a full time pilot in an office with a list of every tail number to control this. It can't be one of our own APA reps who is getting a text of tail XXX being taken out of service as he is rushing through the terminal for his next flight with no office to refer to the master list in a quiet office.
Para 8 © : "one to one basis" if we are together as one why does it matter which side flies it, if it does matter due to block hour limits, then it is effective immediately when an aircraft arrives , not within 6 months.
Para 8 (e) : This still separates US AIR East and AWA. If we are finally going to finish the US AIR merger why does this document talk about East and AWA ?
Para 8 (i) : What is the April 9, 2010 Opinion and what is award FLO-0108 ?
Para 8 (j) (k) : Base closing St. Louis is the only one that is OK to close ? What happens to the TWA guys ? This means they can close any other base after Oct 1, 2013. Where is our positive space for 3 years after the base closes ? If they close a US AIR base can we then go to any AA base ?
Para 10 (A) : Seniority: " and in any event not later than 24 months after the Effective Date"
OK what happens after 24 months ? What is our seniority ? Why not put in a clause that if the issue is not solved in 24 months the company and the pilots agree to a DOH list with no conditions no restrictions and no limits . Meaning any pilot an go to any base any equipment his seniority will allow.
What is the penalty if this takes over 24 months ? The non-merger with AWA has taken 8 years . You can't have anything open ended without a penalty in an agreement.
Para 10 ( B) : "pilots be compensated for flying not performed" Of course we will be . This has to go, if you are trapped in the middle of a base closing or equipment being parked and you are waiting to get into another base or train for something else YES you will be paid for a position not actually flown.
Para 10 ( B) : "materially increase costs " that is the problem for the company, we can't let a clause like this stay in the agreement.
Para 10 © : "remain neutral" What a joke, Tempe has not be neutral thus far with NIC what is the penalty if they are not neutral with the AA seniority issue ? What is the charge if they do not stay neutral ?
Para 10 (f) : " not impose undue burden or expense" again not our issue, the expenses are what they are. You cant leave this in or they have another way out of this.
Para 11 ( B): "includes American Eagle pilots" OK what about our own PSA and Piedmont pilots why aren't they mentioned ? Where is the flow through agreement for the commuter guys to come to mainline AA ? What happens to PSA and Piedmont, will they become part of American Eagle ?
Where is the agreement that if we go backwards our own mainline pilots can flow backwards into the commuters ?
Para 14: "waive all change of control provisions" MUST BE TAKEN OUT. We have the strongest clause in the country that has been lying in wait for 20 years to be used. This is the time to use it.NOT give it away . Our forefathers fought hard to get this clause in our contract . It is the most powerful thing we have to use.
Do not give it away.
Para 23: "minimum vacation" We need a new formula that is better than the current AWA, AA and US AIR to compute vacation. Max of 48 days computed at the SAME rate as sick days, training days and minimum flying days. All of these days should pay the same rate of 5:45 per CALENDAR DAY not a 24 hour duty period.
Para 24 © : profit sharing eliminated NO WAY. We need formula for profit sharing for our future .
Para 24 (d) : Pay protection max of $12 million per year. What if we exceed $12 million, who decides which pilot is pay protected and which pilot is not ?
As the $12 million is gone does the company say to a pilot , "well too bad you are not pay protected" ?
Para 25 (a) : This allows commuter flights up to 75% of the fleet. Must be taken out.ALL Flying should be done only by AA pilots, . If we have commuter size planes they should be on our mainline list . No more contract flying by outside companies. All flying only done by AA pilots regardless of the size of the aircraft . They will all be on our list. No more Eagle, PSA or Piedmont. They all become AA pilots.
Finally where does it mention reimbursement for the AWA and East pilots who have been paid sub-standard wages for 8 years ? When do the East pilots get reimbursed with 8% interest for making less than the West pilots, for not getting paid for distance learning, for getting less vacation, for not getting 125% pay for certain events, for not getting paid 100% for DH flights. Where is this mentioned ?
The signing bonus for the AA pilots and the AWA and East pilots must be the same.
There are many other parts of this MOU I don't understand and that a road show will not explain. Any of us would need to sit down with a lawyer for 8-10 hours in a quiet library or office and go over this point by point to understand all the issue.
A pilot in a meeting of 100 pilots with a non-lawyer trying to explain each point is not good enough when you are talking about our future.
Urge you all to vote no on this until we can make substantial changes to this document
At a minimum these points should be explain to the US AIR and AWA pilots , they make no sense.
This entire MOU is open ended with no penalty explanation if something does not happen on the time frame the company wants.
Also on the pay issue, we need a clause that "no executive or employee at American will have any raise or salary increase that exceeds the increase of a AA pilot "
Meaning if we are given a 3% raise that no employee group, union or not executive or not will not get any raise above our same percentage.
Also no bonus or profit sharing to any group unless we get the same.
Para 4: "will take some time to be implemented" what time frame and what penalty do we charge the company if this is exceeded ? Must be more specific.
Para 7: "not more than $ 1.5 reimbursement" and "not to exceed $4 million" . There should be no limit on the amount we are reimbursed for merger expenses.
Para 8 (a) : "eventual operation" need time frame and what the penalty will be if we are not together as one airline.
Para 8 ( B) : list of aircraft. Agreement must call for a full time pilot assigned and paid by the company to watch over this list as his only job for the next 5 years . The company will try every trick there is to have aircraft in and out of the system being painted or long term maintenance and will extend leases to other carriers , they will delay orders etc.
When we ask if tail # XXX is or is out of the fleet they will ignore us and never give a clear answer.
We need a full time pilot in an office with a list of every tail number to control this. It can't be one of our own APA reps who is getting a text of tail XXX being taken out of service as he is rushing through the terminal for his next flight with no office to refer to the master list in a quiet office.
Para 8 © : "one to one basis" if we are together as one why does it matter which side flies it, if it does matter due to block hour limits, then it is effective immediately when an aircraft arrives , not within 6 months.
Para 8 (e) : This still separates US AIR East and AWA. If we are finally going to finish the US AIR merger why does this document talk about East and AWA ?
Para 8 (i) : What is the April 9, 2010 Opinion and what is award FLO-0108 ?
Para 8 (j) (k) : Base closing St. Louis is the only one that is OK to close ? What happens to the TWA guys ? This means they can close any other base after Oct 1, 2013. Where is our positive space for 3 years after the base closes ? If they close a US AIR base can we then go to any AA base ?
Para 10 (A) : Seniority: " and in any event not later than 24 months after the Effective Date"
OK what happens after 24 months ? What is our seniority ? Why not put in a clause that if the issue is not solved in 24 months the company and the pilots agree to a DOH list with no conditions no restrictions and no limits . Meaning any pilot an go to any base any equipment his seniority will allow.
What is the penalty if this takes over 24 months ? The non-merger with AWA has taken 8 years . You can't have anything open ended without a penalty in an agreement.
Para 10 ( B) : "pilots be compensated for flying not performed" Of course we will be . This has to go, if you are trapped in the middle of a base closing or equipment being parked and you are waiting to get into another base or train for something else YES you will be paid for a position not actually flown.
Para 10 ( B) : "materially increase costs " that is the problem for the company, we can't let a clause like this stay in the agreement.
Para 10 © : "remain neutral" What a joke, Tempe has not be neutral thus far with NIC what is the penalty if they are not neutral with the AA seniority issue ? What is the charge if they do not stay neutral ?
Para 10 (f) : " not impose undue burden or expense" again not our issue, the expenses are what they are. You cant leave this in or they have another way out of this.
Para 11 ( B): "includes American Eagle pilots" OK what about our own PSA and Piedmont pilots why aren't they mentioned ? Where is the flow through agreement for the commuter guys to come to mainline AA ? What happens to PSA and Piedmont, will they become part of American Eagle ?
Where is the agreement that if we go backwards our own mainline pilots can flow backwards into the commuters ?
Para 14: "waive all change of control provisions" MUST BE TAKEN OUT. We have the strongest clause in the country that has been lying in wait for 20 years to be used. This is the time to use it.NOT give it away . Our forefathers fought hard to get this clause in our contract . It is the most powerful thing we have to use.
Do not give it away.
Para 23: "minimum vacation" We need a new formula that is better than the current AWA, AA and US AIR to compute vacation. Max of 48 days computed at the SAME rate as sick days, training days and minimum flying days. All of these days should pay the same rate of 5:45 per CALENDAR DAY not a 24 hour duty period.
Para 24 © : profit sharing eliminated NO WAY. We need formula for profit sharing for our future .
Para 24 (d) : Pay protection max of $12 million per year. What if we exceed $12 million, who decides which pilot is pay protected and which pilot is not ?
As the $12 million is gone does the company say to a pilot , "well too bad you are not pay protected" ?
Para 25 (a) : This allows commuter flights up to 75% of the fleet. Must be taken out.ALL Flying should be done only by AA pilots, . If we have commuter size planes they should be on our mainline list . No more contract flying by outside companies. All flying only done by AA pilots regardless of the size of the aircraft . They will all be on our list. No more Eagle, PSA or Piedmont. They all become AA pilots.
Finally where does it mention reimbursement for the AWA and East pilots who have been paid sub-standard wages for 8 years ? When do the East pilots get reimbursed with 8% interest for making less than the West pilots, for not getting paid for distance learning, for getting less vacation, for not getting 125% pay for certain events, for not getting paid 100% for DH flights. Where is this mentioned ?
The signing bonus for the AA pilots and the AWA and East pilots must be the same.
There are many other parts of this MOU I don't understand and that a road show will not explain. Any of us would need to sit down with a lawyer for 8-10 hours in a quiet library or office and go over this point by point to understand all the issue.
A pilot in a meeting of 100 pilots with a non-lawyer trying to explain each point is not good enough when you are talking about our future.
Urge you all to vote no on this until we can make substantial changes to this document
There is no second chance. We vote this in now or stay status quo until the merger is complete. Once again we have individuals that want to overreach like they did with LOA 93. This MOU will be on us for a short time and we'll be under a new contract. I urge everyone to ignore this buffoon and vote yes. Time to move forward and start making money.
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
I thought you were happy with LOA 93.
Maybe we should have negotiated a new contract instead of trying to rewrite the seniority list for the last 5 years.
The UCC is not going to pay us for our past mistakes.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Oh yes that scared little boy in you is coming out it's the end of the world, no second chance, yea right.
What are those assumptions (very incorrectly stated as if facts) actually based on? Without arguing any pro or con aspects of the MOU; I'm curious here. = What constitutes a "short time" in your estimation, and exactly when will all be "under a new contract"?
dca319: "There is no second chance."....."I urge everyone to ignore this buffoon and vote yes." Well...I'd simply suggest that all, as individuals, do their own thinking as to what's best to do here.
Sure. And the company's LOA 93 offer got better every time we came back to the table. Thank goodness this isn't gong to be even close.
Agreed.
Indeed...and what's your estimate for that? I've some uncertainty from your earlier, seemingly opposed notions. dca319"...We vote this in now or stay status quo until the merger is complete." Immediately followed by: "This MOU will be on us for a short time and we'll be under a new contract."...?
Again; all I'm suggesting is that each person who will be effected should examine this and/or any potential agreement in depth. No pressing need exists for anyone to do otherwise.....regardless of anyone's hysterics.
Much is yet being made of LOA93, and fairly so. I'd ask what the most truly damning element contained was. Was it not the pathetic lack of concise verbage, that instead of providing previous pay at the presumed end time, easilly allowed a conniving management to drive whole columns of trucks through the holes left open....?
"As long as it takes to negotiate a JCBA.", should team tempe be involved, may well be somewhere in the vicinity of when hell first hosts the winter olympics, as all have seen here with both the pilot and FA groups. I won't even start on the obvious need for assuring, without the slightest "umm..well...we think" type of responses, that the document provides and protects what's been agreed to, without leaving gaping holes anywhere....lest the predictable line of company trucks drive through at full speed....
- May 8, 2007
- 3,146
- 3,236
Lets quit the name calling, finger pointing and get to the point.
Every person working at a job is (or should be) looking out for one person.....themselves (or their own interests). That is no secret. That's called doing your job.
The purpose of a union is "uni"-ty.
You don't agree with me about most things and I don't agree with you. Those with the most years have interests that differ from those of those with lessor years.
We have East interests, West interests, senior interests, junior interests, APA interests, USAPA interests, ALPA interests, etc. The ONLY similarity we have as pilots is what we do for a living and that is controlled by the FAA and THEN the company.
So tell me, (without smart a$$ remarks) how can you individually or all of you as a group make ME (or you yourself for that matter) do collectively if its NOT in my (or your) self interest? In short, what's in it for me (or you)?
Now I'm not making a self centered argument in the respect that its all about "me". I'm an adult and the real world is that it certainly isn't all about any one of us.
Now, I LOVE flying, I LOVE working in aviation with people of like interests and I like my pay and working conditions as of right now. I like getting paid for what I do and I like the company I work for. I like the people I work with.
Keeping in mind those things above that I think are my main interests, please try to convince me of any benefits that "you" as a group can provide me short of a teamsters "blanket party".
Please "enlighten me" with all of your "collective wisdom".
Which part of the rates don't you understand? Would you rather be under LOA93 rates or MOU rates until the POR then APA rates with retro while the JCBA is negotiated?
The law can make you do a lot of things that aren't in your personal interest.
That was easy.
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