Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

WRONG!

Right now we are in the process of approving the MOU. If approved by the USAPA membership, USAPA gets to play with APA, AMR, LCC and the UCC in the merger process. Opon the 'Approval Date', if approved, this MOU replaces the CLA that Parker negotiated with the APA back in April. This will start a process to negotiate, and if applicable, arbitrate, a MTA (Merger Transition Agreement) and subsequently a JCBA. It is during this negotiation of the MTA that our TA will in all likelihood be modified, if not eliminated!

Beginning on the Effective Date of the POR (i.e.; exiting bankruptcy) the MTA will govern all until we reach a JCBA. Furthermore, after the Effective Date US Airways will no longer be bound to comply with the East and West CBA's and the Transition Agreement (again..... the MTA will govern). See Section 15.

Ref: Section 4, first sentence:
"It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment
for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA"

Ref: Section 4, last sentence:
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising thereunder.

Ref: Section 8, second sentence:
"From the Effective Date until the effective date of the JCBA, the terms and conditions of employment of the New American Airlines and
US Airways pilots shall be governed by the MTA."

Ref: Section 15:
US Airways agrees that it will comply with the East and West CBAs and the Transition Agreement until the Effective Date.

So, the seniority integration process won't even begin until after the 'effective date', at which time the MTA will be governing and our TA will be long gone!

What part of any of that eliminates the arbitrated seniority list between east and west?

 

[dca319]

What part of any of that eliminates the arbitrated seniority list between east and west?

Absolutely no part of it does. That's the point I'm trying to make. We seem to be grasping at straws.

 

[Zone5]

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Yawn!!! All this effort and bandwidth devoted to the intramural political backstabbing of USAPA opponents and proponents, which will be OBE soon enough anyway. A complete waste of time, swapping one flavor of union politician for another, kind of like arguing between Democrats and Republicans, nothing more than two sides of the same coin being repeatedly flipped. At the end of the day, it just doesn't matter, far more powerful forces end up making the real decisions, not the least of which are the rank and file pilots, not to mention the BIG money men!


seajay

 

[fatherabraham]

Like I said, just call you reps and and talk to them. Ask them pointed, specific questions and see what they say. And don't let them beat around the bush or tell you what you want to hear. Insist on the whole truth.

DOH,

Give it a rest! I have done what you repeatedly say to do. My reps & leaders (vp) have personally explained the Nic is a non issue. Am sure ur cactusboy would have different words to my questions.
Bottom line.....a rep may or may not have a lock on " truth ".
All this " language " I think crafted in ways to get the outcomes the insiders have privately agreed on. The sheep will learn the " truth " when the time is right.
That's what my life experience has taught. Regardless of your confidence laden rants.

FA

 

[RSVP767]

Our current T/A defines how the east and west will integrate seniority. ALPA merger policy. That was followed and we have the Nicolaiu list. Yes, our current TA defines how the East and West will integrate seniority between US Airways and America West. Correct, it was ALPA merger policy and we have the NIC which was accepted by US Airways. It further stated that a JCBA between US Airways pilots and America West pilots needs to be reached before the NIC could be implemented (i.e.; usable, effective)! That is never going to happen! To quote a wise man "all the risk lies with the West"

The new MOU defines how Us Airways pilots and american pilots will integrate seniority. M/B. Correct. "All the risk lies with the West"


If you think that the MOU supersedes the T/A and the Nicolau goes away. How do the US Airways pilots integrate seniority? See my post #3540 above. Actually the MTA will supersede the TA (I mis-spoke). The seniority integration process won't begin until after the effective date of the POR, at which time the MTA will be governing and our TA and your precious NIC will be gone. "All the risk lies with the West"
Point out in the MOU where it defines east and west integration? Try Section 10. f. A Seniority Integration Protocol Agreement ("Protocol Agreement") consistent with McCaskill-Bond and this Paragraph 10 will be agreed upon within 30 days of the Effective Date. The Protocol Agreement will set forth the process and protocol for conducting negotiations and arbitration,if applicable. "All the risk lies with the West"

Were does it define how the west pilots would be represented in a seniority east/west integration? You can't have it both ways that usapa represents the Us Airways pilot against american and represents east pilots against west pilots. The US Airways pilots (East and West) will be represented by USAPA until such time as a new bargaining agent is voted in (presumably APA). USAPA will represent the US Airways pilots equally, the only way they currently can.....by their respective seniority lists that are in effect. The only usable lists at LCC. "All the risk lies with the West".

Now think for a minute. Parker has been using to delay for 5 years. He now needs to integrate all 3 groups. Parker has also said in court he is afraid of a law suit. The APA has been told that they will inherit the DFR if they don't use the Nicolau. Why would Parker agree to a deal that would continue the east/west seniority issue? Sure, we're all affraid of the lawsuit. And I have no doubt AOL will file. The challenge will be winning it. But you've said it yourself....he needs to integrate all 3 groups (three lists) in a merger between US Airways (that currently uses two lists) and American. Completely outside the realm of the US Airways/America West merger and the NIC. "All the risk lies with the West".

The MOU talks about US Airways pilots and American pilots. It does not talk about east and west pilots. Correct. And the US Airways pilots operate under two lists! "All the risk lies with the West".

 

[Beancounter]

Yawn!!! All this effort and bandwidth devoted to the intramural political backstabbing of USAPA opponents and proponents, which will be OBE soon enough anyway. A complete waste of time, swapping one flavor of union politician for another, kind of like arguing between Democrats and Republicans, nothing more than two sides of the same coin being repeatedly flipped. At the end of the day, it just doesn't matter, far more powerful forces end up making the real decisions, not the least of which are the rank and file pilots, not to mention the BIG money men!


seajay

I agree, it will be what it will be. How about more on the stuff we know will happen if this goes through? Pay, scope, benefits, etc. Compared to Delta some things seem worse and others better.

Bean

 

[nic4us]

I agree, it will be what it will be. How about more on the stuff we know will happen if this goes through? Pay, scope, benefits, etc. Compared to Delta some things seem worse and others better.

Bean

Sure Bean...I will start.

We know for sure that scab's last meaningful event will be hosting the vote on the MOU.

Then we know usacaba will go bye bye....

Then we know the Nic, being the only accepted system seniority list, will be used to integrate the pilots of AMR and LCC.

 

[nic4us]

What part of any of that eliminates the arbitrated seniority list between east and west?

Clear...maybe we can get some of the east posters to list even one time ever that an arbitrated award was vacated or rendered moot, because one side decided they did not like the result.

How about you Claxhole? Got an arbitrated award ever that went away because one side decided to scab?

 

[3dtv]

Sure Bean...I will start.

We know for sure that scab's last meaningful event will be hosting the vote on the MOU.

Then we know usacaba will go bye bye....

Then we know the Nic, being the only accepted system seniority list, will be used to integrate the pilots of AMR and LCC.

Never accepted by a ratification vote in a contract. Even a cave man can see a three company deal that clearly states MB for seniority is NOT the golden ticket you so desparately want. The negotiators and parties all know the intent and the process to come after a merger. No NIC.

 

[cleardirect]

Never accepted by a ratification vote in a contract. Even a cave man can see a three company deal that clearly states MB for seniority is NOT the golden ticket you so desparately want. The negotiators and parties all know the intent and the process to come after a merger. No NIC.

M/B for integration between US Airways and American. The MOU says nothing about integrating between east and west. That has already been done.

It could not be more clear. We will have a JCBA prior to seniority integration between American and us airways. The us airways pilots will vote and ratify a contract. That implements a joint contract covering east and west. The Nicolau become the list for all us airways pilots.


Some time after a joint contract is used and the Nicolau is implemented. THEN we use M/ B to integrate us airways pilots and American pilots.


Yes it is simple.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Let's get this #### to crackin and find out. We'll find out, one way or the other.

 

[nic4us]

Never accepted by a ratification vote in a contract. Even a cave man can see a three company deal that clearly states MB for seniority is NOT the golden ticket you so desparately want. The negotiators and parties all know the intent and the process to come after a merger. No NIC.

There is no ratification approval of binding arbitration.

There are not three companies to combine.

I would think the intent will be to combine two companies. The process dictated by various laws and regulations. One such law will govern seniority integration.

That means unmodified Nic, to it's terms, for the pilots of LCC.


Gettin a little nervous about that seat you stole?

 

[nic4us]

My God! I've been saying "Cat Piss" all these years! And nobody questioned it.

Does not surprise me that amongst your many faults on the east and your propensity for bending metal, that you can't even get something as simple as the call sign right!

 

[EastUS1]

It makes perfect sense if the guy at the controls is a completely incompetent idiot and inaction will cause certain disaster. You guys never seem to know a disastrous situation when you see it however.

We must all now bow down to your lifetime of proven flying "experience" and "judgement" here I suppose?

 

[EastUS1]

Does not surprise me that amongst your many faults on the east and your propensity for bending metal,....

Ah!...Another "bulletproof-nothing-could-possibly-ever-happen-to-me-'cause-I'm-just-TOO good and TOO special!" AWA "Ace" speaks! Several of the greatest fighter Aces in American history died in flying mishaps, as did the first man in space (who was also, doubtless selected for his duties with far less credentials than AWA always demanded)...Gerhard Barkhorn of the Luftwaffe, with a "mere" 301 kills, lost his life in just a wintertime auto accident, but no matter = Afer all...you're AWA! ...NEVER could anything EVER go wrong with ME!...I'm REALLY something extra-AWA-special! Sigh!....Good luck with that infantile philosophy.

Your and Metro/Move2clt/etc's type are a constant source of head-shaking, unbelievable amazement...and wry amusement at your incredible innocence. I wish you all the best of luck aloft....You'll need it (and who knows?...may have only existed to date based largely on it) especially while burdened with that kind of mindless arrogance.

Always pay attention up there. KLM's top check airman died in the worst commercial aviation accident in history. Sigh! I'll just leave this all with a fictional character's observation, one with far more wisdom than you two "real" umm.."pilots" exhibit = "Life is like a box of chocolates...You never know what you're gonna' get"

GROW UP! If not for your own sakes, for your passengers.