Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[algflyr]

Once you pull the trigger and the firing pin makes contact with the round, the gun fires. It doesn't matter if what remains is ejected and a new round slides into place. In fact, it's supposed to work exactly like that.

It only lives in the TA until it is triggered, just like the bullet in the shell.

The problem is that the gun has been changed... The NIC is still in the chamber, but nobody can pull the trigger because that gun is no longer in use...

 

[Zone5]

Yep!! That's all it takes!! I'm encouraging everybody to vote YES to this thing. It kills the Nic and finally gets payrates that aren't an embarassment. VOTE YES.

I'm voting yes, just to get rid of the "Cats Ass" call sign!


seajay

 

[algflyr]

My God you are dense!

I see now why I rarely post on here. I have never been disrespectful to ANYONE on this forum. I post some very clear contract language and you start off with insults? I suppose a true debate is just not possible on here... Back to lurking... Btw, you never addressed the language I posted... Just sayin...

 

[3dtv]

My God you are dense!

This is complete fantasy land. If the MOU is voted on, then guess what? USAPA did negotiate a new contract with the company. And that contract goes into effect before the merger between AA and US happens. Did you read the joint message? Since we vote on the MOU, it constitutes a new agreement for USAPA. They clearly stated this and how it differs for the APA pilots.

You are just making stuff up now and ignoring every piece of evidence that doesn't support your preconceived conclusions.

You are setting yourself up for a major disappointment. Oh well. I guess you'll have to endure alot of "I told you so's" when this is all over.

You fail to understand the MOU does NOT go into effect before a merger. It only goes into effect AT merger approval at the same time the TA is void and SLI talks begin with NO agreement to use NIC or any other method. That starts on day one.

 

[cleardirect]

You will not have "a single agreement", meaning between east and west. You will have an approved proposal not in force until if and when an AA/US merger occurs and at the same time the old TA is void.

The new MOU rules and follow on JCBA will be three party not two. You never had and never will have a two party vote in this deal, only if no merger and we go back to section 6.

Wrong.

18. a. This Memorandum shall become effective (the “Memorandum Approval Date&rdquo upon the
date when all of the following have occurred: (i) approval by APA’s Board of Directors; (ii) approval by
US Airways' Board of Directors; and (iii) approval by AMR Corporation's Board of Directors. If all of
these approvals do not occur, this Memorandum shall be null and void in its entirety and as to all
Parties.
b. This Memorandum shall become applicable to USAPA upon the later of (i) the
10
Memorandum Approval Date; and (ii) USAPA’s Board of Pilot Representatives’ recommending that
USAPA’s membership ratify this Memorandum and USAPA’s membership’s subsequent ratification of
this Memorandum. USAPA will inform the Parties whether its Board of Pilot Representatives has
agreed to recommend that its membership ratify the MTA on or before January 4, 2013. If
recommended, the ratification vote of USAPA’s membership shall be completed no earlier than
approval of the Merger by AMR Corporation’s Board of Directors and no later than 60 days after such
approval (if any). If such recommendation and ratification do not timely occur, this Memorandum shall
be of no force or effect as to USAPA but shall remain in full force and effect as to the other parties.

Right there is your east/ west (two party)vote. If the US Airways pilots turn it down, no MOU but it still applies to the rest of the parties.

 

[RSVP767]

Correct. The MOU and JCBA do not provide the basis for changing the seniority list. The TRANSITION AGREEMENT does.

.........which is SUPERSEDED by the MOU.

 

[dca319]

Yes.


seajay

Good luck. If it was that easy USAPA would have done it long ago. Instead, all we were able to accomplish was a delay tactic using the courts and dues money and subsidizing it all with LOA 93.

We've done nothing to remove the Nicolau from SLI and I feel it'll show up in the end and there won't be a thing we can do about it.

 

[dca319]

.........which is SUPERSEDED by the MOU.

I remember how USAPA kept telling us a new union voided the Nicolau. That theory didn't come to fruition. And I doubt that Nicolau will be superseded by anything. I can't imagine an arbitrate list just vanishing.

 

[noDOH4u]

The problem is that the gun has been changed... The NIC is still in the chamber, but nobody can pull the trigger because that gun is no longer in use...

That's not what the courts said... under the pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit and all. The gun (Transition Agreement) is still in use until replaced by a new agreement, which pulls the final trigger implementing the Nic.

No disrespect at all. The dense comment was just to stress that interpreting the meaning of all this requires looking at ALL of it and not narrowly selected pieces that fit a predetermined meaning, and nothing else. Like I said, just call you reps and and talk to them. Ask them pointed, specific questions and see what they say. And don't let them beat around the bush or tell you what you want to hear. Insist on the whole truth.

 

[cleardirect]

.........which is SUPERSEDED by the MOU.

Our current T/A defines how the east and west will integrate seniority. ALPA merger policy. That was followed and we have the Nicolaiu list.

The new MOU defines how Us Airways pilots and american pilots will integrate seniority. M/B.

10. a. A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible
after the Effective Date. If, on the date ninety (90) days following the Effective Date, direct
negotiations have failed to result in a merged seniority list acceptable to the pilots at both airlines, a
panel of three neutral arbitrators will be designated within fifteen (15) days to resolve the dispute,
pursuant to the authority and requirements of McCaskill-Bond. That arbitration proceeding will
commence no later than 60 days after the designation of the arbitrators, or as soon thereafter as
practicable given the availability of the designated arbitrators, provided that it is understood that, in no
event, shall the seniority integration arbitration proceeding commence prior to final approval of the
JCBA pursuant to the deadlines and procedures in Paragraph 27 below. The panel of arbitrators will
render its award within six (6) months of the commencement of the arbitration, and in any event not
later than 24 months after the Effective Date.


c. The integrated seniority list resulting from the McCaskill-Bond process shall be final and
binding on APA and USAPA (and/or the certified bargaining representative of the combined pilot
group), the company(ies) and its(their) successors (if any), and all of the pilots of American/New
American Airlines and US Airways.

If you think that the MOU supersedes the T/A and the Nicolau goes away. How do the US Airways pilots integrate seniority? Point out in the MOU where it defines east and west integration?

Were does it define how the west pilots would be represented in a seniority east/west integration? You can't have it both ways that usapa represents the Us Airways pilot against american and represents east pilots against west pilots.

Now think for a minute. Parker has been using to delay for 5 years. He now needs to integrate all 3 groups. Parker has also said in court he is afraid of a law suit. The APA has been told that they will inherit the DFR if they don't use the Nicolau. Why would Parker agree to a deal that would continue the east/west seniority issue?

The MOU talks about Us Airways pilots and american pilots. It does not talk about east and west pilots.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'm voting yes, just to get rid of the "Cats Ass" call sign!


seajay

My God! I've been saying "Cat Piss" all these years! And nobody questioned it.

 

[dca319]

Forwarded With Author's Permission

THE RECALL BALLOT IS OUT AND CLOSES ON FEBRUARY 5........
PLEASE PASS THE WORD .............................

VOTE FOR THE RECALL OF BILL MCKEE, STEVE CRIMI, & DEWITT INGRAM

NOW MORE THAN EVER, WE NEED.............
LEADERSHIP THAT IS RESPONSIBLE AND TRANSPARENT TO ALL MEMBERS.....
LEADERSHIP THAT WILL LISTEN TO THE OPINION OF ALL MEMBERS ....
LEADERSHIP THAT WILL KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND NOT BE ENCUMBERED BY SPECIAL INTERESTS ....
LEADERSHIP THAT KNOWS HOW TO BUILD AND STRIVES FOR CONSENSUS AND UNITY .....
LEADERSHIP THAT LISTENS TO THE PROFESSIONAL ADVISORS AND KNOWS WHEN TO CLOSE THE DEAL .....
LEADERSHIP THAT RESPECTS THOSE WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS AND DOESN’T BELITTLE THEM PUBLICLY .....
LEADERSHIP THAT DOESN’T TRY TO INFLUENCE BY INTIMIDATION, NEW HIRES AND JUNIOR PILOTS ....
LEADERSHIP THAT DOESN’T USE THEIR OFFICE AS A BULLY PULPIT ....
LEADERSHIP THAT RESPONDS TO PHONE CALLS FOR HELP FROM ITS MEMBERS NO MATTER THE TIME OF DAY OR NIGHT.....
LEADERSHIP THAT CALLS A MEMBER WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS INSTEAD OF CALLING AIRPORT POLICE ON HIM .....
LEADERSHIP THAT CALLS A MEMBER WITH DIFFERING OPINIONS INSTEAD OF CALLING THE CHIEF PILOT ON HIM .....
LEADERSHIP THAT IS MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PILOTS HE REPRESENTS THEN THE LEGACY HE WILL LEAVE .....
LEADERSHIP THAT IS INCLUSIVE AND USES THE BEST AVAILABLE FOR COMMITTEE AND LEADERSHIP POSITIONS .....
LEADERSHIP THAT EXTENDS SURVIVOR BENEFITS SUPPORT TO ALL WIDOWS REGARDLESS OF THEIR HUSBANDS PREVIOUS UNION AFFILIATION ....
LEADERSHIP THAT EARNS OUR RESPECT AND SUPPORT INSTEAD OF DEMANDING WE BE GOOD UNION PILOTS.....

MY VOTES HAS BEEN CAST.... I HOPE YOU WILL VOTE AS I DID TO RECALL MCKEE, CRIMI AND INGRAM!

RICH ALTER

 

[dca319]

CLT Domicile Officer Recall Referendum

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[cleardirect]

My God! I've been saying "Cat Piss" all these years! And nobody questioned it.

How very professional of you. You must feel so proud.

 

[RSVP767]

This MOU gets us to a JCBA and defines M/B for the NEXT integration.

At that point a JCBA implements the Nicolau and completes the T/A. We then move on to the next seniority arbitration with two lists. The Nicolau and the APA list.

WRONG!

Right now we are in the process of approving the MOU. If approved by the USAPA membership, USAPA gets to play with APA, AMR, LCC and the UCC in the merger process. Opon the 'Approval Date', if approved, this MOU replaces the CLA that Parker negotiated with the APA back in April. This will start a process to negotiate, and if applicable, arbitrate, a MTA (Merger Transition Agreement) and subsequently a JCBA. It is during this negotiation of the MTA that our TA will in all likelihood be modified, if not eliminated!

Beginning on the Effective Date of the POR (i.e.; exiting bankruptcy) the MTA will govern all until we reach a JCBA. Furthermore, after the Effective Date US Airways will no longer be bound to comply with the East and West CBA's and the Transition Agreement (again..... the MTA will govern). See Section 15.

Ref: Section 4, first sentence:
"It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment
for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA"

Ref: Section 4, last sentence:
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising thereunder.

Ref: Section 8, second sentence:
"From the Effective Date until the effective date of the JCBA, the terms and conditions of employment of the New American Airlines and
US Airways pilots shall be governed by the MTA."

Ref: Section 15:
US Airways agrees that it will comply with the East and West CBAs and the Transition Agreement until the Effective Date.

So, the seniority integration process won't even begin until after the 'effective date', at which time the MTA will be governing and our TA will be long gone!