Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Claxon]

4. It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment
for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA ...the Parties agree that each term of the MTA
shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term, and
such terms, when applicable, shall govern and displace any conflicting or wholly or partially
inconsistent provision of the former US Airways pilot agreements or the status quo arising thereunder.
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior
collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising
thereunder.
The way I read it, the current TA is nullified and replaced by the MTA.
Cheers.

Give it ten minutes. Maybe less before one of their geniuses tells you something contrary to what is written in your MOU. My bet is Metroyet

 

[cleardirect]

4. It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment
for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA ...the Parties agree that each term of the MTA
shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term, and
such terms, when applicable, shall govern and displace any conflicting or wholly or partially
inconsistent provision of the former US Airways pilot agreements or the status quo arising thereunder.
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior
collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising
thereunder.
The way I read it, the current TA is nullified and replaced by the MTA.
Cheers.

Your point?

A new contract will do that to old contracts.

Paragraph 15.

15. US Airways agrees that it will comply with the East and West CBAs and the Transition Agreement until the Effective Date.

The T/A says that the Nicolau will be used.

Paragraph 18 d

d. This Memorandum will only apply to this Merger, and will apply to this Merger regardless of
its corporate structure. This Memorandum shall not affect or have any applicability to American's
stand-alone plan or any merger or transaction other than this Merger.

The current T/A states how seniority will be completed between east and west. The MOU can not and does not change that method. This MOU gets us to a JCBA and defines M/B for the NEXT integration.

From the current T/A

VI. Operational Pilot Integration
A. Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West
and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12)
months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list
and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single
FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect
to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30)
days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every
reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for
America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the
airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the
“Operational Pilot Integration.”

Three things required for pilot intgegration.
1. Single certificate. We have that
2. Completed integration of a seniority list. We have that the Nicolau.
3. A single agreement. A JCBA will do that.

At that point a JCBA implements the Nicolau and completes the T/A. We then move on to the next seniority arbitration with two lists. The Nicolau and the APA list.

 

[dca319]

The way I read it, the current TA is nullified and replaced by the MTA.
Cheers.

And what? Nic goes away?

 

[Metroyet]

And what? Nic goes away?

Yep!! That's all it takes!! I'm encouraging everybody to vote YES to this thing. It kills the Nic and finally gets payrates that aren't an embarassment. VOTE YES.

 

[PullUp]

Your point?
A new contract will do that to old contracts.
Paragraph 15.
The T/A says that the Nicolau will be used.
Paragraph 18 d
The current T/A states how seniority will be completed between east and west. The MOU can not and does not change that method. This MOU gets us to a JCBA and defines M/B for the NEXT integration.
From the current T/A
Three things required for pilot intgegration.
1. Single certificate. We have that
2. Completed integration of a seniority list. We have that the Nicolau.
3. A single agreement. A JCBA will do that.
At that point a JCBA implements the Nicolau and completes the T/A. We then move on to the next seniority arbitration with two lists. The Nicolau and the APA list.

Dude, the current TA goes in the dumpster and is never heard from again (along with the Nic) as soon as the merger is approved.
The MTA/AA contract governs at that point. Read the part about how the seniority list can't change as a result of this agreement.....
When the gavel comes down, the TA and the nic go underground.
(to the tune of: "if the glove don't fit, you must aquit.")
Cheers.

 

[algflyr]

3. A single agreement. A JCBA will do that.

At that point a JCBA implements the Nicolau and completes the T/A.

The TA does NOT say "A single Agreement"...
The TA says "THE single Agreement"...

THE single Agreement is clearly defined in section V of the TA... Here it is:

"The Association and the Airline Parties will negotiate a single collective bargaining agreement applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways (the "Single Agreement") as follows:"

The "Parties" are clearly defined as America West and US Airways management. Not America West, US Airways and any other airline management that may become involved... The "Single Agreement" is defined as an agreement that is applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways... Not America West, US Airways and any other airline that may be added later...

The conditions required for the implementation of the NIC have never been met. And they won't be if a merger with AA happens. The only way the NIC can become the official list is if USAPA negotiates a contract between the East and the West and it is ratified before the American merger takes place... We all know that won't happen...

 

[3dtv]

Your point?

A new contract will do that to old contracts.

Paragraph 15.



The T/A says that the Nicolau will be used.

Paragraph 18 d



The current T/A states how seniority will be completed between east and west. The MOU can not and does not change that method. This MOU gets us to a JCBA and defines M/B for the NEXT integration.

From the current T/A



Three things required for pilot intgegration.
1. Single certificate. We have that
2. Completed integration of a seniority list. We have that the Nicolau.
3. A single agreement. A JCBA will do that.

At that point a JCBA implements the Nicolau and completes the T/A. We then move on to the next seniority arbitration with two lists. The Nicolau and the APA list.

You will not have "a single agreement", meaning between east and west. You will have an approved proposal not in force until if and when an AA/US merger occurs and at the same time the old TA is void.

The new MOU rules and follow on JCBA will be three party not two. You never had and never will have a two party vote in this deal, only if no merger and we go back to section 6.

 

[PullUp]

Ok, so the seniority issue is clarified.
Anybody read AA's contract yet for the details/comparisons on payrates, sick, vacation, disability, etc?
I'm starting to read it, but 391 pages---whew.
Makes good bedtime reading - puts you right to sleep!
Any details would be appreciated.
Cheers.

 

[Zone5]

Final and binding isn't a suggestion. USAPA is in its death throes if this merger moves fwd.

Ya, ya sure; Whatever you say. I'll give you this much, USAPA will go away, at some point, if the merger gets consummated.


seajay

 

[Piedmont1984]

The MOU says 291 widebody capt positions protected. I counted 320 positions on the last bid. I wonder why the mismatch. The MOU says 475 widebody F/O positions protected. I haven't counted how many active F/O's, can't add that high on two hands.

Maybe because the MOU is not looking at 757's.

 

[Zone5]

4. It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment
for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA ...the Parties agree that each term of the MTA
shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term, and
such terms, when applicable, shall govern and displace any conflicting or wholly or partially
inconsistent provision of the former US Airways pilot agreements or the status quo arising thereunder.
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior
collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising
thereunder.
The way I read it, the current TA is nullified and replaced by the MTA.
Cheers.

You sir, are correct!


seajay

 

[noDOH4u]

4. It is the intent of the Parties that, as of the Effective Date, the terms and conditions of employment
for pilots employed by New American Airlines and US Airways will be set by the MTA ...the Parties agree that each term of the MTA
shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term, and
such terms, when applicable, shall govern and displace any conflicting or wholly or partially
inconsistent provision of the former US Airways pilot agreements or the status quo arising thereunder.
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior
collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising
thereunder.
The way I read it, the current TA is nullified and replaced by the MTA.
Cheers.

You really are attached to this line of thinking. So be it. You will soon find out how wrong you are. But I understand the need to hold on to any shred of misunderstood evidence to keep you house of cards standing.

A new contract ALWAYS replaces the old one rendering it null and void. Basic contract law 101. What you fail to recognize is that the binding arbitration that occurred and has been accepted by the company is only waiting on that very single agreement to finalize the requirement to put the Nic into effect. Once you pull the trigger and the firing pin makes contact with the round, the gun fires. It doesn't matter if what remains is ejected and a new round slides into place. In fact, it's supposed to work exactly like that.

Don't you get it? The Nic award does not need the Transition Agreement in order to survive once we have a new agreement. The TA only protects the Nic until it is implemented by a new agreement. It only lives in the TA until it is triggered, just like the bullet in the shell.

Save yourself further embarrassment and call your reps. (If they even return your calls.) No need to take anyone's word for it here. Call them and present all of your arguments. See what they say. Or don't and continue to live in denial. But don't expect anyone here to allow you to spread false information.

 

[Zone5]

And what? Nic goes away?

Yes.


seajay

 

[noDOH4u]

"The Association and the Airline Parties will negotiate a single collective bargaining agreement applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways

The only way the NIC can become the official list is if USAPA negotiates a contract between the East and the West and it is ratified before the American merger takes place... We all know that won't happen...

My God you are dense!

This is complete fantasy land. If the MOU is voted on, then guess what? USAPA did negotiate a new contract with the company. And that contract goes into effect before the merger between AA and US happens. Did you read the joint message? Since we vote on the MOU, it constitutes a new agreement for USAPA. They clearly stated this and how it differs for the APA pilots.

You are just making stuff up now and ignoring every piece of evidence that doesn't support your preconceived conclusions.

You are setting yourself up for a major disappointment. Oh well. I guess you'll have to endure alot of "I told you so's" when this is all over.

 

[Zone5]

The TA does NOT say "A single Agreement"...
The TA says "THE single Agreement"...

THE single Agreement is clearly defined in section V of the TA... Here it is:

"The Association and the Airline Parties will negotiate a single collective bargaining agreement applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways (the "Single Agreement") as follows:"

The "Parties" are clearly defined as America West and US Airways management. Not America West, US Airways and any other airline management that may become involved... The "Single Agreement" is defined as an agreement that is applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways... Not America West, US Airways and any other airline that may be added later...

The conditions required for the implementation of the NIC have never been met. And they won't be if a merger with AA happens. The only way the NIC can become the official list is if USAPA negotiates a contract between the East and the West and it is ratified before the American merger takes place... We all know that won't happen...

True enough! However, if the AMR merger doesn't happen........well then, were right back to where we left off, God forbid!


seajay