CWA Files for Representation Election

[Bob Owens]

Bob, the IAM isn't doing too great financially now either, they have approximately 350,000 members not too long ago it was north of 700,000. Buffy and Roach haven't felt the sting the IAM workers have in all their sell out agreements to protect jobs (dues payers) for the concessions master. Bob, do you see the IAM as viable alternative to the TWU if the USAIR merger becomes a reality? IAM contracts for mechanics are substandard and lagging the industry by a wide margin, just look at USAIR. Do you think given the fact that the IAM has no experience bargaining with AA management and their abandoning of the TWA workers will hinder their success in an election?

Josh

I already stated that with the mechanic group the TWU (which is at the very bottom by a considerable margin when you factor in benefits, workrules and PTO) would likely be at a disadvantage in a one on one runoff election with the IAM, which may be why the IBT is making such a push to get in. There are a lot of Ex-IAM workers at AA as a result of EAL and TWA who tend to speak highly of the militant culture that the IAM they belonged to had, we also have a considerable number of ex Pan Am, who have less seniority than the EAL guys due to the fact that the concessions the TWU kept giving kept the company alive a little longer, enough to lower their lifetime earnings, give upper management more time to raid the pensions, and have them start over after the EAL guys, so they don't speak highly of the TWU either. As it stands today mechanics at USAIR get more Vacation, more sick time, more Holidays and more IOD time than their peers at AA. For mechanics the TWU and IAM are the two poorest performers as AA and US are the two lowest payers in the industry by a wide margin, even lower than non-union. Basically both Unions have provided employers mechanics labor at below market rates. You also have to take into account that the deal in place was rejected by the majority of those who remain at AA, they got it to pass by getting guys who were leaving to vote yes and by terrorizing Tulsa. Do you think workers who voted out of fear are going to have a lot of loyalty for a union that made them fearful? So as much as you hate the IAM IMO the ex-IAM population at AA would probably vote IAM as would many others simply based upon the better PTO and work rules at US. Its also possible that there would be a considerable showing of interest to not have any union if the choice was between two unions that could only deliver deals that were inferior to what Non-union mechanics are getting..

The TWU has been able to prevent elections in the past by making sure that the card count comes up short, Bobby Gless testified in 2004(?) that if there was an election between AMFA and the TWU that the TWU would lose, however in a merger the other union does not have to prove that the members want an election in order to get one, so I believe that the TWU and IBT are just as concerned about a TWU-IAM election as a TWU-AMFA election. In the event of a merger driven election we may see a different approach to how the TWU and AA define Class and Craft for M&R than we have in the past.

As you noted the IAM has already seen their membership halved, I doubt they will walk away without a fight at USAIR. However if the TWU/IBT has a pending election they may cut a deal with the IAM where the TWU walks away with Fleet and the IAM walks away with M&R which may be at risk to AMFA anyway. For the TWU it would be a good deal, picking up Fleet and others from USAIR and if they merge with the IBT and CWA the IBT would then represent everyone except the pilots an mechanics at USAIR.

The IAM was at one time the dominant union in the airline industry. They are the only union that ever shut it down. Its a shame to see what happened to them. The IBT seems to be the new dominant union but we can not say that they got that way by fighting for their members like the IAM once did. Has the IBT ever taken an Airline worker out on strike?

 

[1AA]

Well if all this plays out. Considering so many things have to fall in place. If the real story comes out on how the IAM,TWU and IBT are cutting deals just to protect dues then I say lets have a all out vote in the M&R group. Lets put the cards on the table and let the players show their hands. TWU? IAM? IBT? AMFA?
The TWU,IAM and IBT slam AMFA on being broke but from what Bob wrote all unions are going broke. So lets have a all out vote and may the best union for the AMT's win.
It is about representation not just money!

 

[Bob Owens]

Well if all this plays out. Considering so many things have to fall in place. If the real story comes out on how the IAM,TWU and IBT are cutting deals just to protect dues then I say lets have a all out vote in the M&R group. Lets put the cards on the table and let the players show their hands. TWU? IAM? IBT? AMFA?
The TWU,IAM and IBT slam AMFA on being broke but from what Bob wrote all unions are going broke. So lets have a all out vote and may the best union for the AMT's win.
It is about representation not just money!

I have no knowledge of the finances of the other unions, only ours.

 

[swamt]

IBT? I can not see it since the AFL-CIO will lose money on dues. The IBT dues are more than the TWU, IAM and AMFA. There will be some kind of objection if this were to happen. A run off vote would be democratic but since when has the TWU, IAM and IBT been democratic?

There needs to be a vote between AMFA and TWU at AA before the merger between AA/US takes place. With all this merger talk within the unions, this just solitifies the fact that the ibt, TWU, and possibly even the IAM is scared of what will happen to the mechanics ranks once AMFA is voted in at AA. They see it coming and are jerk reacting to situation. I understand your position 1AA, but the representational vote needs to happen prior to any kind of merger involving AA with anyone, my opinion...

 

[737823]

I already stated that with the mechanic group the TWU (which is at the very bottom by a considerable margin when you factor in benefits, workrules and PTO) would likely be at a disadvantage in a one on one runoff election with the IAM, which may be why the IBT is making such a push to get in. There are a lot of Ex-IAM workers at AA as a result of EAL and TWA who tend to speak highly of the militant culture that the IAM they belonged to had, we also have a considerable number of ex Pan Am, who have less seniority than the EAL guys due to the fact that the concessions the TWU kept giving kept the company alive a little longer, enough to lower their lifetime earnings, give upper management more time to raid the pensions, and have them start over after the EAL guys, so they don't speak highly of the TWU either. As it stands today mechanics at USAIR get more Vacation, more sick time, more Holidays and more IOD time than their peers at AA. For mechanics the TWU and IAM are the two poorest performers as AA and US are the two lowest payers in the industry by a wide margin, even lower than non-union. Basically both Unions have provided employers mechanics labor at below market rates. You also have to take into account that the deal in place was rejected by the majority of those who remain at AA, they got it to pass by getting guys who were leaving to vote yes and by terrorizing Tulsa. Do you think workers who voted out of fear are going to have a lot of loyalty for a union that made them fearful? So as much as you hate the IAM IMO the ex-IAM population at AA would probably vote IAM as would many others simply based upon the better PTO and work rules at US. Its also possible that there would be a considerable showing of interest to not have any union if the choice was between two unions that could only deliver deals that were inferior to what Non-union mechanics are getting..

The TWU has been able to prevent elections in the past by making sure that the card count comes up short, Bobby Gless testified in 2004(?) that if there was an election between AMFA and the TWU that the TWU would lose, however in a merger the other union does not have to prove that the members want an election in order to get one, so I believe that the TWU and IBT are just as concerned about a TWU-IAM election as a TWU-AMFA election. In the event of a merger driven election we may see a different approach to how the TWU and AA define Class and Craft for M&R than we have in the past.

As you noted the IAM has already seen their membership halved, I doubt they will walk away without a fight at USAIR. However if the TWU/IBT has a pending election they may cut a deal with the IAM where the TWU walks away with Fleet and the IAM walks away with M&R which may be at risk to AMFA anyway. For the TWU it would be a good deal, picking up Fleet and others from USAIR and if they merge with the IBT and CWA the IBT would then represent everyone except the pilots an mechanics at USAIR.

The IAM was at one time the dominant union in the airline industry. They are the only union that ever shut it down. Its a shame to see what happened to them. The IBT seems to be the new dominant union but we can not say that they got that way by fighting for their members like the IAM once did. Has the IBT ever taken an Airline worker out on strike?

Yes Bob but as you said before, the USAIR IAM contract may be marginally better than AA TWU contract but its certainly nothing to brag about even after three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies. I assume a union leader you expect better for yourself and the membership. In regards to the possible (likely) merger you have to look at how USAIR treats their current employees and ask yourself if they will treat the AA workers any better and the answer is no. You posted about this a few months back and I agree wholeheartedly, if they are unable to provide fair and competitive contracts for their current workers its unlikely they will for AA workers after a merger. You often talk about the effects of concessionary agreements throughout the industry and your trade, I'd say merging the two lowest paid with the worst contracts would probably be bad for your peers at other carriers.

In regards to peoples' feelings about the IAM, the IAM of 2013 is very different than the IAM of 2001. You have posted about this as well before, they have been in a downward spiral and become interested in giving the company exactly what they want and selling out the membership. There is no shortage of posts from your colleagues at AA criticizing the IAM for their handling of the TWA workers seniority (even if as pre-merger AA employees they today have higher relative seniority), facilitating NWA bust AMFA in 2005, and starting the concessions train at USAIR in 2002.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Roach hasnt been GVP of Transportation in over a year, see if you read the boards better you might have known that fact, since it has been discussed on this board before. Roach is GST of the IAM.

Sito Pantoja is GVP of Transportation, a good union man, a big supporter of the AMT and is a fighter, his pet project is Aviation High School in Queens and has done lots of good things for the students.

The IAM is fine financially, you can read that for yourself.

And since the IAM is over 350,000 members and the IP salary is around $200,000 plus expenses, I believe, had looked at the constitution says or the LM2.

How many employees does your company employ and what is the CEO's salary.

What bank do you work for and did they take the TARP funds?

Did you have a merry x-mas joshie?

Glad to see your posting misinformation once again, the how many times does it have to be told to AA went to all the unions at TWA, not just the IAM and AA told TWA and the unions if they didnt waive the LPPs, that AA wouldnt buy TWA and TWA would have gone chapter 7 and liqidate?

The IAM spent over $5 million on defending the seniority rights for its members, and took it to arbitration and the arbiter made the ruling.

The TWU gave concession for Pan Am decades ago and started concessions at AA in 1983, and even took concessions out of bankruptcy in 2003.

And ALPA was the first union to take concessions and they agreed to them before US filed chapter 11 in 2002. The IAM was the only group M&R, that is to vote NO on the first concessionary CBA after we were forced to negotiate because US filed Chapter 11 and used Section 1113 C to force negotiations or abrogation would occur.

Care to keep lying about the real facts and truth?

 

[737823]

Roach hasnt been GVP of Transportation in over a year, see if you read the boards better you might have known that fact, since it has been discussed on this board before. Roach is GST of the IAM.

Sito Pantoja is GVP of Transportation, a good union man, a big supporter of the AMT and is a fighter, his pet project is Aviation High School in Queens and has done lots of good things for the students.

The IAM is fine financially, you can read that for yourself.

And since the IAM is over 350,000 members and the IP salary is around $200,000 plus expenses, I believe, had looked at the constitution says or the LM2.

How many employees does your company employ and what is the CEO's salary.

What bank do you work for and did they take the TARP funds?

Did you have a merry x-mas joshie?

Glad to see your posting misinformation once again, the how many times does it have to be told to AA went to all the unions at TWA, not just the IAM and AA told TWA and the unions if they didnt waive the LPPs, that AA wouldnt buy TWA and TWA would have gone chapter 7 and liqidate?

The IAM spent over $5 million on defending the seniority rights for its members, and took it to arbitration and the arbiter made the ruling.

The TWU gave concession for Pan Am decades ago and started concessions at AA in 1983, and even took concessions out of bankruptcy in 2003.

And ALPA was the first union to take concessions and they agreed to them before US filed chapter 11 in 2002. The IAM was the only group M&R, that is to vote NO on the first concessionary CBA after we were forced to negotiate because US filed Chapter 11 and used Section 1113 C to force negotiations or abrogation would occur.

Care to keep lying about the real facts and truth?

IAM Overspeed is like a broken record, you keep posting from the same script. Face it, you are concerned the IAM will get decertified when AA merges with USAir.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Bob, the IAM isn't doing too great financially now either, they have approximately 350,000 members not too long ago it was north of 700,000. Buffy and Roach haven't felt the sting the IAM workers have in all their sell out agreements to protect jobs (dues payers) for the concessions master. Bob, do you see the IAM as viable alternative to the TWU if the USAIR merger becomes a reality? IAM contracts for mechanics are substandard and lagging the industry by a wide margin, just look at USAIR. Do you think given the fact that the IAM has no experience bargaining with AA management and their abandoning of the TWA workers will hinder their success in an election?

Josh

Yes Bob but as you said before, the USAIR IAM contract may be marginally better than AA TWU contract but its certainly nothing to brag about even after three rounds of concessions in two bankruptcies. I assume a union leader you expect better for yourself and the membership. In regards to the possible (likely) merger you have to look at how USAIR treats their current employees and ask yourself if they will treat the AA workers any better and the answer is no. You posted about this a few months back and I agree wholeheartedly, if they are unable to provide fair and competitive contracts for their current workers its unlikely they will for AA workers after a merger. You often talk about the effects of concessionary agreements throughout the industry and your trade, I'd say merging the two lowest paid with the worst contracts would probably be bad for your peers at other carriers.

In regards to peoples' feelings about the IAM, the IAM of 2013 is very different than the IAM of 2001. You have posted about this as well before, they have been in a downward spiral and become interested in giving the company exactly what they want and selling out the membership. There is no shortage of posts from your colleagues at AA criticizing the IAM for their handling of the TWA workers seniority (even if as pre-merger AA employees they today have higher relative seniority), facilitating NWA bust AMFA in 2005, and starting the concessions train at USAIR in 2002.

Josh

Josh

Just replying to you joshie, and answer the questions.

 

[eolesen]

Just curious, UW, how many of those remaining 350,000 IAM are actually machinists or in the aerospace industry (not to be confused with airline industry)?

 

[Kev3188]

Just curious; where are you guys getting this 350k number from? Latest numbers (2011) from the DOL show ~581k...

 

[Bob Owens]

Roach hasnt been GVP of Transportation in over a year, see if you read the boards better you might have known that fact, since it has been discussed on this board before. Roach is GST of the IAM.

Sito Pantoja is GVP of Transportation, a good union man, a big supporter of the AMT and is a fighter, his pet project is Aviation High School in Queens and has done lots of good things for the students.

I agree that Sito is a good guy, he was when I knew him, but the best thing he could do for the guys at Aviation High School is discourage them from going into Aviation.

How many employees does your company employ and what is the CEO's salary.

Union leaders are not corporate executives, they should not make salaries that their members could never achieve. I believe Harry Bridges, one of the greatest Union leaders ever commented on that. their pay should be based on their members pay, not how many members they have.


Josh, although 700UW and I disagree often he is nowhere near what Overspeed is. I see 700UW as a unionist with whom I disagree on certain points, I see Overspeed as a false unionist who promotes whatever is good for AA.

 

[usa1]

CWA election thread? Anyone have thoughts on how most AA customer service agents feel about the CWA?

 

[eolesen]

There are no agents on this forum. The one or two who were here years ago probably got tired of listening to all the mechanics trying to overthrow/defend the TWU. And nothing has really changed in that regard.

So... you'll have to wait for the election results. If those taking the buyout also waived their right to vote, then it will probably fail, but that's just a guess.

 

[Bob Owens]

There are no agents on this forum. The one or two who were here years ago probably got tired of listening to all the mechanics trying to overthrow/defend the TWU. And nothing has really changed in that regard.

So... you'll have to wait for the election results. If those taking the buyout also waived their right to vote, then it will probably fail, but that's just a guess.

Unfortunately you haven't grown tired of us mechanics. Why is that?

 

[usa1]

From experience I can tell you that if it fails ... and then the merger stumbles .... the first move management makes is to cut everything non-contract. Non-union employees will be the low hanging fruit. Not that crazy about unions myself ... but you don't want to be the only group in an organization without one.