Could US Airways Take Over American?

[Hopeful]

Can you tell me what the AA F/A union's proposals are? I've been to thier website and Facebook and can't find anything. They seem to have quite a few Youtube videos.

http://aanegotiations.com/apfa.asp

 

[Hopeful]

There is plenty of arrogance on both sides. Just like AA some of the unions in the property are in la la land.

Do you realize the TWU has given this company just about everything they ever wanted? Do you realize that?
B scale? C scale? OSMs? SRPs? just to name a few.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WN's been bundling using fare families for as long as I've been flying them as a paying customer. They may not extend it to bags, but if you want flexibility, you pay extra for it. If you want early boarding, you pay for it either thru Early Bird or a higher fare family. If you wanted to fly at a certain time, you paid for it.

It's probably true that they didn't have to unbundle things like pillows, blankets, entertainment or food. But that's because THEY NEVER OFFERED IT.

It may be time for you need to find a different hobby. You've apparently been away from the industry long enough to only be informed to what you see in a press release...

Except that everyone including the DOT and consumer groups can undertand that pillows, blankets, entertainment, and food are amenities and do not need to be included in the price of basic transportation.
That is probably the reason why they don't consider WN's charges for early boarding as part of the ticket price and why no one is asking them to disclose it at the time of booking as they are requiring for every other airline. If all you want is a seat on the plane and the ability to check a piece of luggage, that service is included in the price of a ticket on WN - and they even throw in some fare changes at no charge as well. There aren't many airlines that do that. WN's not perfect but they provide what people perceive to be a fair value and there are no surprises for charges that are otherwise part of the basic transportation services. The fact that other airlines including AA and DL are now disclosing the cost of the add on services such as baggage and change fees that WN provides as part of the ticket price proves that it is the "other airlines" not WN that the DOT has come down on. The DOT could care less about whether airlines sell food or blankets or movies or anything else that is not part of the core transportation services. Paying extra for different levels of advance purchase is part of the way fares have evolved, incidentally which AA has one of the earliest airlines to implement.
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So, once again, you were caught making inaccurate statements about retirement benefits and the fact that AA was superior when in fact AA's retirement benefits are massively underfunded, I pointed that out, and you now try to come back and get revenge for pointing out your errors.
If you only stuck to what you know or checked things out before you typed, I wouldn't have to constantly embarass you in front of all these people you are trying to impress.
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The simple fact is that AA is not an LCC (which stands for low cost carrier) given that AA has the highest costs in the US of any large jet carrier.... AA is also not a low fare carrier because it has fares that are at or above $1000 even in for domestic flights. AA offers a number of services which are targeted a premium, high fare passengers and which distinguish that class of airlines from true low fare carriers.
Your statement that AA is morphing into an LCC or even in the direction of an LCC is not accurate.
What is accurate is what I wrote and which you chose to chew up and spit out.

it would be more accurate to say that AA is leading the pack AWAY from traditional distribution systems (whcih AA pioneered) to something that is more LFC compatible... but given that most other aspects of AA's operation is very much a high cost network carrier model, it isn't at all accurate to say that AA is becoming an LFC. Premium clubs and cabins, international service, and agency participation are very big cost components and identifiers of network carrier service...
further, AA operates a heavilly hub and spoke network which is becoming less point to point with every schedule change.
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Given that WN is one of the few carriers in the US - and even in other countries - that doesn't "bundle price" its product, I don't think you can make a statement about whether AA or WN is LFC based on its pricing strategies.. most carriers now have unbundled their product - LFCs just happen to have started the trend.

If you'd dispense with the attempts at revenue and be willing to admit if you say something incorrect, we could actually have some pleasant conversations. Once again, you do have knowledge of the industry but you are far too quick to speak on things where you are not accurate and then become revengeful when your errors are pointed out to you.

 

[Imjustsayin]

http://aanegotiations.com/apfa.asp

That is where American Airlines posts it's proposals. I'm trying to see what APFA has. I've looked on their sites and Facebook and all I see is Youtube videos, picketing information and chatter. A Flight Attendant at AA told me she doesn't even know what APFA is proposing, so I thought I would find out and tell her.

 

[boston]

That is where American Airlines posts it's proposals. I'm trying to see what APFA has. I've looked on their sites and Facebook and all I see is Youtube videos, picketing information and chatter. A Flight Attendant at AA told me she doesn't even know what APFA is proposing, so I thought I would find out and tell her.

Maybe your friend hasn't gone to the APFA meetings we were gven information at that time, I believe that AA is violating AA/APFA agreement to not put out specifics, but AA wants to negotiate with us directly, but what I've read what they are offering is a "NO GO". Laura Gladding and the negotiating team has been directed to only come back with a huge step forward or don't come back at all. Your friend can can her base chair and talk with them. I know LAX/MIA domestic and Int have now problem chatting about the facts.

not sure why this is being discussed on this thread, oh well

 

[jersey777]

That is where American Airlines posts it's proposals. I'm trying to see what APFA has. I've looked on their sites and Facebook and all I see is Youtube videos, picketing information and chatter. A Flight Attendant at AA told me she doesn't even know what APFA is proposing, so I thought I would find out and tell her.

No one knows. Like I have said repeatedly on here the APFA does not publicly state what specific pay and benefits are in its proposals because they are very very fluid. When negotiations heat up proposals are sent back between the parties and specific items are added or withdrawn. The APFA HAS publicly stated that they asked for two 3% percent raises from 2008 until 2012 with no other changes to the contract which was rejected by AA. That just proves that for every 3% we get in raises the company expects the equivalent savings in other areas.

I will tell you this, if and when negotiations resume and we are FINALLY released into a 30 day cooling off period, more and more specifics will be made public to the membership.

 

[eolesen]

Jersey, is 3% hard to attain if the min/max hours are raised up to where other carriers are?

 

[strikeforce]

Laura Gladding and the negotiating team has been directed to only come back with a huge step forward or don't come back at all.

Did the membership direct Gladding and the negotiating team not to come back unless the T/A took a huge step forward?

Unfortunately, the TWU leadership doesn't give our membership that option. However, I do believe the membership spoke loud and clear after the 2003 concessions, and gave our team a mandate to get everything back, but it's pretty obvious that the TWU doesn't listen, or care to listen, to the membership, otherwise the TEAM wouldn't have brought back that POS and rejected T/A, right?

Just a side note regarding this topic......AA was a very profitable airline pre-TWA, and management held people accountable. Crandall left, and Carty took over and decided to buy TWA. That was the downfall for AA. This merger has been disastrous from the start, and continues to fester out of control today. Lots of ex-TWA management came in and took key positions within AA, and brought the bankrupt TWA way of doing business with them.....such as M&E. Now, AA is close to bankruptcy. Do you think it's just a coincidence why AA is in such dire straits?

Now, why in the world would AA want to associate itself with another LOSER airline like US Air? Tell me?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Just a side note regarding this topic......AA was a very profitable airline pre-TWA, and management held people accountable. Crandall left, and Carty took over and decided to buy TWA. That was the downfall for AA. This merger has been disastrous from the start, and continues to fester out of control today. Lots of ex-TWA management came in and took key positions within AA, and brought the bankrupt TWA way of doing business with them.....such as M&E. Now, AA is close to bankruptcy. Do you think it's just a coincidence why AA is in such dire straits?

Now, why in the world would AA want to associate itself with another LOSER airline like US Air? Tell me?

well said. The TWA acquisition was one of AA's biggest strategic blunders and it created a culture of distrust on top of the financial disaster that it became that AA may never overcome. It didn't achieve what it was intended to do but worse yet, AA mgmt has been unable to overcome the burden of the TW disaster.
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It probably is beyond AA's ability to control its future any longer.... it is so deeply in debt and still losing so much money that it is doubtful it can turn itself around without ripping out whatever remaining soul might exist.
The fact that AA labor unions believe it is possible to return to what once existed shows how terribly out of touch they are with reality. The fact that AA mgmt can't or won't be honest in admitting how badly broken AMR is shows the need to find real leadership that can turn AA and AMR around.
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As such, US might have just as much chance to turn AA around. No one has any illusions that US will be benevolent but it just might be able to financially right the ship that AA mgmt has been unable to do for a decade.

 

[Frank Szabo]

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[Frank Szabo]

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Now, why in the world would AA want to associate itself with another LOSER airline like US Air? Tell me?

Heavy emphasis on "another LOSER airline".

TWA was a "loser" simply because of Ichan's continued hold on it, due to the conditions of making him go away - had it not have been for that, the "merger" probably could have been reversed - TWA buying AMR. Water under the bridge now.

The word "IF" is rather magickal:

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride", and

"If frogs had wings, they could screw pigeons".

 

[jersey777]

Jersey, is 3% hard to attain if the min/max hours are raised up to where other carriers are?

Other carriers? Like who? Southwest? Where AA claims they are scheduled over 100 hours a month? A big, fat, huge, double dosed untruth!

 

[Bob Owens]

No one has any illusions that US will be benevolent but it just might be able to financially right the ship that AA mgmt has been unable to do for a decade.

Lets see revenues are up by around $5 billion, and they are doing it with 40,000 less employees and 200 less airplanes. Show me a company outside of the airline or the oil industry that has been able to do what AA has done, decrease production but dramatically increase revenues. Profits mean nothing, thats obvious by the way the owners set up compensation for the people they hired to run this company and the fact that financial institutions still throw money at AA from Citibanks purchase of a billion in Aadvantage miles, to the way they scooped up the special issue debt AA sold and the fact Aa still has billions in cash.

 

[FWAAA]

Other carriers? Like who? Southwest? Where AA claims they are scheduled over 100 hours a month? A big, fat, huge, double dosed untruth!

There's no need for you to emulate WT and write misleading material; you convert a winning argument into nonsense when you fabricate.

AA doesn't claim that WN FAs are scheduled over 100 hours a month. AA claims that WN has the flexibility to schedule FAs for up to 114 hours a month. Everyone knows that doesn't happen often, but it can on occasion.

According to AA, only UA and US FAs flew fewer average block hours per FA in 2009. Of course, their hourly pay rates are substantially lower than at AA.

DL FAs, where both sides (PMDL and PMNW) can be scheduled for up to 100 hours a month, flew an average 3.2 hours more than AA FAs in 2009. CO FAs, who can be scheduled for more hours per month than AA FAs under their contract, actually flew an average 8.7 block hours more than AA FAs in 2009. FAs at WN and FL also flew substantially more hours, on average, than AA FAs. And, of course,their contracts permit higher scheduled hours.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Heavy emphasis on "another LOSER airline".

TWA was a "loser" simply because of Ichan's continued hold on it, due to the conditions of making him go away - had it not have been for that, the "merger" probably could have been reversed - TWA buying AMR. Water under the bridge now.

No one who knew the industry 10 years ago could believe that AA would be the target of a takeover by any other US airline. AA was more than strong enough to take care of and defend itself. Not so much anymore.

Lets see revenues are up by around $5 billion, and they are doing it with 40,000 less employees and 200 less airplanes. Show me a company outside of the airline or the oil industry that has been able to do what AA has done, decrease production but dramatically increase revenues. Profits mean nothing, thats obvious by the way the owners set up compensation for the people they hired to run this company and the fact that financial institutions still throw money at AA from Citibanks purchase of a billion in Aadvantage miles, to the way they scooped up the special issue debt AA sold and the fact Aa still has billions in cash.

Bob, every time you quote that statistic you somehow manage to forget to include the change in costs. How 'bout when you quote that stat again you tell us the increase in AA's costs to keep the revenue number in context?
As long as you believe that the company is making money and hiding it just to keep it away from AA labor, then you are certain to be one of the prime movers in AA's demise. If the dues paying members of the TWU don't recognize your inability to understand basic business principles and won't get rid of you, then they deserve to be standing in the unemployment line.
Just like the AA mgmt fan club, you don't seem to comprehend that all of that money in AA's bank accounts is borrowed.... all of it. Because AA owes far more money than they have in cash, which means they don't have a single penny of cash that is rightfully theirs. Whether that cash came from the sale of Advantage Miles or debt or secured loans, it is the same.
AA might have enough unencumbered assets to secure Debtor in Possession financing in bankruptcy but that isn't even certain... AA has repeatedly said that virtually all of its assets are uncumbered by debt right now.
If AMR cannot obtain DIP financing, it isn't even certain they could make it through bankruptcy.

There's no need for you to emulate WT and write misleading material; you convert a winning argument into nonsense when you fabricate.

AA doesn't claim that WN FAs are scheduled over 100 hours a month. AA claims that WN has the flexibility to schedule FAs for up to 114 hours a month. Everyone knows that doesn't happen often, but it can on occasion.

According to AA, only UA and US FAs flew fewer average block hours per FA in 2009. Of course, their hourly pay rates are substantially lower than at AA.

DL FAs, where both sides (PMDL and PMNW) can be scheduled for up to 100 hours a month, flew an average 3.2 hours more than AA FAs in 2009. CO FAs, who can be scheduled for more hours per month than AA FAs under their contract, actually flew an average 8.7 block hours more than AA FAs in 2009. FAs at WN and FL also flew substantially more hours, on average, than AA FAs. And, of course,their contracts permit higher scheduled hours.

Except that the claims that you and others make about how much money AA has are true only if you forget that it is all borrowed, you also seem unable to recognize that AA's labor cost disadvantage has its roots in real day to day operations of the AAirline.
And then you make claims that AA is cost competitive if you leave out salaries... as if anyone is going to work for free AAround here.
If AA FAs work "almost" as much as other airlines and they have wage rates that aren't much better than other carriers, then where is the cost disadvantage coming from?
Is it possible (actually pretty likely) that other carriers might have much higher percentages of part-time FAs than AA which skews the calculation of hours and also the cost of FAs per hour. Is it also possible (rather likely again) that those other carriers have much lower seniority FAs which also helps to bring down FA costs as well.
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WT is in fact a whole lot more on the mark and accurate about the truth of AA than you want to admit; the fact that he is presenting the Whole Truth is why you can't stand his messAAge.
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See the brutal reality is that, as much as AA mgmt has made some serious missteps, it has been forced to stop growing the airline because AA's costs are so high that the company cannot effectively compete against lower cost and more nimble carriers. A lack of growth only forces costs up higher because growth is the means by which airlines use to limit the increase in salaries which otherwise occur as people move up the payscale.
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Further, despite what some want to believe, the compAAny isn't offering retirement benefits that are better than other carriers because AA's retirement plans are deeply underfunded.
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As much as you don't want to hear it, FWAAA and others, there are fundamental day to day reasons why AA is in the financial trouble it is in... it starts - just like it does with the US government - with inefficiency and continues all the way through to the promises which AA has made but which cannot possibly keep.
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And the icing on the cake, just like the US government, is that AA and its labor unions seem both to be deeply in denial about how bad the problems are. In fact, there are a growing number of Americans who recognize that the path the US government is on is unsustainable; too bad there aren't AA people who recognize the same thing about their company - or at least step forward and start convincing those that are apparently living in the magical world to which Frank makes reference.