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TWU informer
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- Nov 4, 2003
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Better yet,
Permanent Part Timers without Medical Benefits.
Permanent Part Timers without Medical Benefits.
Could It Be That American Unions Are To Blame?
- Thread starter TWU informer
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Well the Junior Fleetservice title was disposed of because they could not keep people. My point is that the others farm out all their heavy maintanence; so they have no heavy overhaul, no shops,and no OSMs and no AMTs to perform that type of work. What do you think of AMFA agreeing to NWA's demand for keeping only 1080 AMTs (out of almost 10000 they used to have) and agreeing to work for $26 an hour? Do you think it is right for them to agree to throw 90% of their membership under the bus and let the remaining 10% work for substantially less that the TWU represented AA mechanics? I know a few who used to work the ramp and went to become OSMs and SRPs; and some of them went on and got their A&Ps. But the reality is that NW and DL will be in bankrutpcy for a couple of years and they will not pay some of their debts and will rape their employees (NW already decapitated AMFA). This will put even more pressure on AA and even though they still have a few remaining assets they can sell or use as collateral, I don't think it will be enough. I will stay as long as feesible and I am in the process of "transitioning" from AA.Bob Owens said:
Skymess,Sep 19 2005, 12:20 AM]
I see it that AA helped make the industry concession domino effect a reality by agreeing to much steeper cuts than we should have.
And we took those cuts outside of BK!
The alternate scenario to the FA vote being validated No, as it should have been, would have been that we negotiate an agreement that would not have bottomed us out so totally. The people with the most to give, the pilots, still have their incredible retirements. I truly resent that I have been paupered so that people can retire millionaires.
Lets not forget that they also had their fine forgiven and got back 9% the first year. But thats not the pilots fault, its our unions fault for giving up so much.
I think that even if we did go to bankruptcy it would have been a short stint. We probably would have renegotiated leases, and other costs and I truly doubt they would have gotten such a big chunk of money out of my pocket. It took United FA's two pay cuts to almost equal what my union gave back willingly.
Thats just it, our huge concessions forced those other companies to seek more concessions in order to compete with us.
The only positive thing that I can say about management is that they at least took our concessions and came up with a viable business plan.
Did they? What was it?
United, US Airways, and Delta, took their employees money and THAT was their business plan.
How is that different from AA?
I think the management team has done a pretty good job turning things around. They just need to give more to premium customers and stop nickle and dimeing them to death.
As for future concessions, there isn't much more for us (the FA's) to give back that my union isn't already currently giving up now that they are more chummy with AMR and making new letters of agreement daily. APFA sucks. The alternatives are worse. Sad. But that's life.
All in all, I think we seriously helped the decline of the industry in terms of our pay cuts but I also think the poor management at those other airlines helped. I think that the government also acted too little too late by not making the bankruptcy laws effective immediately. Why bother to make them effective after October when so many were leaking money to begin with? The next thing bankrupt will be the PBGC.
If these companies restructure and lower costs significantly, and the fuel prices stay high, I wouldn't rule out AMR having to declare under the new rules and wind up going out of business before any of the others. It's always the wild card that surprises you.
No doubt that management and the unions wont use that as an excuse for yet another round of industry laeding concessions.
I see it that AA helped make the industry concession domino effect a reality by agreeing to much steeper cuts than we should have.
And we took those cuts outside of BK!
The alternate scenario to the FA vote being validated No, as it should have been, would have been that we negotiate an agreement that would not have bottomed us out so totally. The people with the most to give, the pilots, still have their incredible retirements. I truly resent that I have been paupered so that people can retire millionaires.
Lets not forget that they also had their fine forgiven and got back 9% the first year. But thats not the pilots fault, its our unions fault for giving up so much.
I think that even if we did go to bankruptcy it would have been a short stint. We probably would have renegotiated leases, and other costs and I truly doubt they would have gotten such a big chunk of money out of my pocket. It took United FA's two pay cuts to almost equal what my union gave back willingly.
Thats just it, our huge concessions forced those other companies to seek more concessions in order to compete with us.
The only positive thing that I can say about management is that they at least took our concessions and came up with a viable business plan.
Did they? What was it?
United, US Airways, and Delta, took their employees money and THAT was their business plan.
How is that different from AA?
I think the management team has done a pretty good job turning things around. They just need to give more to premium customers and stop nickle and dimeing them to death.
As for future concessions, there isn't much more for us (the FA's) to give back that my union isn't already currently giving up now that they are more chummy with AMR and making new letters of agreement daily. APFA sucks. The alternatives are worse. Sad. But that's life.
All in all, I think we seriously helped the decline of the industry in terms of our pay cuts but I also think the poor management at those other airlines helped. I think that the government also acted too little too late by not making the bankruptcy laws effective immediately. Why bother to make them effective after October when so many were leaking money to begin with? The next thing bankrupt will be the PBGC.
If these companies restructure and lower costs significantly, and the fuel prices stay high, I wouldn't rule out AMR having to declare under the new rules and wind up going out of business before any of the others. It's always the wild card that surprises you.
No doubt that management and the unions wont use that as an excuse for yet another round of industry laeding concessions.
aafsc,Sep 20 2005, 07:45 AM]
Well the Junior Fleetservice title was disposed of because they could not keep people.
So you admit that the TWU agreed to terms that were so bad that the company could not keep people? If thats the best they can do then why should workers give up two hours pay to an organization that cant get them anything? In other words they are paying for nothing.
How many other unionized carriers had JFSCs?
That should tell you something about the TWU.
My point is that the others farm out all their heavy maintanence; so they have no heavy overhaul, no shops,and no OSMs and no AMTs to perform that type of work.
And the reason why they farmed out that work is because AA enjoyed much lower costs due to the TWU negotiated concessions where they created a classification of very low paid mechanics. Other unions would not agree to this and it took 10 years and 9-11 for the other carriers to be forced to address this inequity.
AA was able to transition out their higher paid mechanics over time, replacing them with lower paid workers, so current mechanics did not take pay cuts, due to the fact that they won this concession during a period of rapid expansion. Other carriers could not do this so they were forced to send the work out.
What do you think of AMFA agreeing to NWA's demand for keeping only 1080 AMTs (out of almost 10000 they used to have) and agreeing to work for $26 an hour?
As far as I know the strike is still on, they did not agree to your lies. How much do you make an hour? Years ago there was less of a difference between mechs and FSC, the gap widened as AMFA grew because as you guys just sat by, loyal to your TWU your wages lagged even further behind those of mechanics who were trying to get rid of the TWU. The only reason we are making as much as we are, and not closer to what you are making is because of AMFA.
Do you think it is right for them to agree to throw 90% of their membership under the bus and let the remaining 10% work for substantially less that the TWU represented AA mechanics?
Do you think its right for TWU leaders to undercut the industry through things like B-scale, Flex Benifits, Prefunding,and the largest concessions package in history, effectively throwing 100% of the membership under the bus while they give themselves raises and preserve their kickbacks from the company? Do you think its right that the TWU sold out its current dues payers, brokering in inferior working conditions so that they could get more members, in other words sacrificing our quality of life to increase their Treasury? At AMFA these decisions are made by the members, who can recall any leader who they feel is not performing, at the TWU we can not recall those who have control of our contract.
I know a few who used to work the ramp and went to become OSMs and SRPs; and some of them went on and got their A&Ps.
And? More than likely they filled out AMFA cards.
But the reality is that NW and DL will be in bankrutpcy for a couple of years and they will not pay some of their debts and will rape their employees (NW already decapitated AMFA).
And AA raped us without going BK.
This will put even more pressure on AA and even though they still have a few remaining assets they can sell or use as collateral, I don't think it will be enough. I will stay as long as feesible and I am in the process of "transitioning" from AA.
So after all that you admit that the TWU has done a lousy job at protecting pay and benifits. If the TWU had done a good job then none of us would be in the process of "transitioning". Look around, with all the BK carriers how many have ceased operations? How many people are flying today vs 9-11? The fact is that not only have the airlines slashed our pay but they have effectively put a speedup in place, getting fewer workers to move more people at much lower wages. The fact is that the airlines will still need workers, most of them will be union, the only difference is those workers will no longer be well paid, but the owners and the union leaders will be.
Its time to come clean AAFSC, you are a TWU official arent you? I say this because all the FSCs I've spoken to are unhappy with the TWU, they just feel they have no place else to go.
Maybe the Teamsters will change that.
Well the Junior Fleetservice title was disposed of because they could not keep people.
So you admit that the TWU agreed to terms that were so bad that the company could not keep people? If thats the best they can do then why should workers give up two hours pay to an organization that cant get them anything? In other words they are paying for nothing.
How many other unionized carriers had JFSCs?
That should tell you something about the TWU.
My point is that the others farm out all their heavy maintanence; so they have no heavy overhaul, no shops,and no OSMs and no AMTs to perform that type of work.
And the reason why they farmed out that work is because AA enjoyed much lower costs due to the TWU negotiated concessions where they created a classification of very low paid mechanics. Other unions would not agree to this and it took 10 years and 9-11 for the other carriers to be forced to address this inequity.
AA was able to transition out their higher paid mechanics over time, replacing them with lower paid workers, so current mechanics did not take pay cuts, due to the fact that they won this concession during a period of rapid expansion. Other carriers could not do this so they were forced to send the work out.
What do you think of AMFA agreeing to NWA's demand for keeping only 1080 AMTs (out of almost 10000 they used to have) and agreeing to work for $26 an hour?
As far as I know the strike is still on, they did not agree to your lies. How much do you make an hour? Years ago there was less of a difference between mechs and FSC, the gap widened as AMFA grew because as you guys just sat by, loyal to your TWU your wages lagged even further behind those of mechanics who were trying to get rid of the TWU. The only reason we are making as much as we are, and not closer to what you are making is because of AMFA.
Do you think it is right for them to agree to throw 90% of their membership under the bus and let the remaining 10% work for substantially less that the TWU represented AA mechanics?
Do you think its right for TWU leaders to undercut the industry through things like B-scale, Flex Benifits, Prefunding,and the largest concessions package in history, effectively throwing 100% of the membership under the bus while they give themselves raises and preserve their kickbacks from the company? Do you think its right that the TWU sold out its current dues payers, brokering in inferior working conditions so that they could get more members, in other words sacrificing our quality of life to increase their Treasury? At AMFA these decisions are made by the members, who can recall any leader who they feel is not performing, at the TWU we can not recall those who have control of our contract.
I know a few who used to work the ramp and went to become OSMs and SRPs; and some of them went on and got their A&Ps.
And? More than likely they filled out AMFA cards.
But the reality is that NW and DL will be in bankrutpcy for a couple of years and they will not pay some of their debts and will rape their employees (NW already decapitated AMFA).
And AA raped us without going BK.
This will put even more pressure on AA and even though they still have a few remaining assets they can sell or use as collateral, I don't think it will be enough. I will stay as long as feesible and I am in the process of "transitioning" from AA.
So after all that you admit that the TWU has done a lousy job at protecting pay and benifits. If the TWU had done a good job then none of us would be in the process of "transitioning". Look around, with all the BK carriers how many have ceased operations? How many people are flying today vs 9-11? The fact is that not only have the airlines slashed our pay but they have effectively put a speedup in place, getting fewer workers to move more people at much lower wages. The fact is that the airlines will still need workers, most of them will be union, the only difference is those workers will no longer be well paid, but the owners and the union leaders will be.
Its time to come clean AAFSC, you are a TWU official arent you? I say this because all the FSCs I've spoken to are unhappy with the TWU, they just feel they have no place else to go.
Maybe the Teamsters will change that.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
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Bob Owens said:
To paraphrase Don Carty, you can't rape a willing soul. And before anyone starts jumping up and down, that quote was made back in 1982 when McDonnell-Douglas "gave" us our first 20 MD80's for virtually nothing.
Bob Owens said:
What you selectively overlook is that the TWU does appear to have done a far better job at protecting jobs. The IAM and AMFA gave up jobs -and- pay at UA, US, and now NW. And that's not my opinion -- it's factual, backed up by term sheets contained in SEC filings and court filings.
Bob Owens said:
Maybe aliens from the planet Zoog will land in Central Park and share with us technology which allows us to run airplanes on a mixture of pretzels and beer....
The turn around plan was a master genius stroke.They realized that morale was at an all time low after the SERP plans were revealed and they figured they had to come up with a feeling of unity to tie everyone back together and make people feel that we had a new management team in place when in reality it was the same SERP people minus Carty.
You have to give them credit for a few things here.
-Manipulating many in the company with the idea a new team was in place.
-Actually listening to employee ideas. It makes sense that you listen to people who are in the trenches everyday and come up with plans that make things more logical. Examples: fleet shift, depeaking, etc.
3. cutting significant costs everywhere so that our pay cuts weren't just a band aid to cover a gaping wound.
The cuts we took were significantly more than they probably every dreamed we would give willingly. That's a fact.
Once again, I am just happy that they didn't take my money only to keep propping up the cash cow. That is what the teams over at DL, UAL, and US kept doing over and over. It was positively heinous to see their business plan was to keep taking employee money.
Bagbelt
Senior
- Apr 3, 2004
- 454
- 6
I really think not washing uniforms really helped. Mine stand up by themselves now, I don't need coat hangers and the hole in my back pocket looks professional. It was taking $600,000 out of a revenue stream of $21,000,000,000, if the passengers call you stinky, just ignore them.
Bob Owens said:
Me, a TWU official? You are making me laugh. I have never held any union office nor have I ever had that desire. No union has done a good job in terms avoiding concessions; whether it be the IAM, TWU, IBT, or AMFA. Yes, AMFA got the big raises at NW in 2001, but AMFA neglected to close the farmout loophole in their contract which enabled them to permanently replace 60% of their AMTs long before the strike even began. This also reduced "strength in numbers" within their own group. NWA conceded the wage raises in 2001 then shortly after began planning AMFA's demise at NWA; and we now see the results of those plans. AMFA has been out for a month now and NWA is still flying. A union can be only as good as it's membership. When I was at EAL, as long as there was one person on layoff, no one worked overtime. Planes would sit waiting to be parked. This forced EAL to bring everyone back. We were not perfect at EAL, but everyone knows we drove Lorenzo from the industry permanently because of our unity. When I and many others got laid off/downgraded at AA in 1992, I was shocked that those who remained were getting 4 over, 4 early and both days off overtime. They openly bragged about it. It was said on other websites (amfanuts and the-mechanic) that AMFA members did the same up until the strike. Bob, I have been watching the AMFA situation at NW closely. It has been reported that AMFA accepted the 1080 AMT number and NWA's hourly pay proposal in the last round of bargaining but they could not agree on how many weeks of severance. I was not posting lies. I was posting what was reported in the media.
Wretched Wrench
Veteran
- Apr 21, 2003
- 1,626
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aafsc said:
It's the law of supply and demand. Every day, the supply increases and the demand decreases. this mandates lower wages and benefits until we all are working for WalMart conditions. Oh yes, add outsourcing and offshoring and immigration.
The calculus does not augur well.
.
