Unions Prefer Bankruptcy

[KCFlyer]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 5:48:42 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Just about every airline that went C-7 was able to gain concessions, apparently concessions do not make much of a difference. Better to stay at full pay till the last day, the extra money will help to carry you till your next job.


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[/blockquote]

Bob, can you tell of us of any airline that either avoided Chapter 11 or emerged from Chapter ll without concessions?

 

[j7915]

[blockquote]----------------On 1/25/2003 5:48:42 PM Bob Owens wrote: [blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 11:49:00 AM AirwAr wrote:

History has also shown that once an airline goes to bankruptcy, it’s only a matter of time till its demise.


Just about every airline that went C-7 was able to gain concessions, apparently concessions do not make much of a difference. Better to stay at full pay till the last day, the extra money will help to carry you till your next job.

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You mean C-11? I think 7 is a complete liquidation. With a toy maker buying the trademark, for the collections of ailines that were, The Golden Age of Flight contd.

 

[Steiner]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 654 PM Connected1 wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 5:48:42 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Better to stay at full pay till the last day, the extra money will help to carry you till your next job.
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[/blockquote]
You've made the case for arbitration with that one statement. It is ludicrous that a company can be choked to death by its own short-sighted employees. It is time for the tables to be turned.
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[/blockquote]

Choked to death by management employees, or union employees? If arbitration is anything like UAL's IAM Mechanic's contract from the Presidential Emergency Board, maybe it won't be too bad.

 

[Connected1]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 5:48:42 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Better to stay at full pay till the last day, the extra money will help to carry you till your next job.
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[/blockquote]
You've made the case for arbitration with that one statement. It is ludicrous that a company can be choked to death by its own short-sighted employees. It is time for the tables to be turned.

 

[limit]

Nobody I know wants the company to go bankrupt.
Most people do expect management to provide a sound business plan before it asks for consesions. The savings achieved so far do not include a new business plan.
It seems to us that the company wants to avoid bankrupsy by reducing their labor costs alone. If this is not correct, why is management unable or unwilling to present their plan?
Since the new realities of the aviation business were evident to most of us since the early 90’s ,I am convinced that the ever astute management team at AA was aware of those facts also.
Even if you are willing to forgive the approximately 10 years of no action from the early 90’s up to 9/11 don’t you think that it would be reasonable to expect- make that demand- a new business plan, a year and a half after the September 11 events?
Even if they were in a coma in the 90’s surely they were jolted out of it by 9/11.
We do not want this company to fail. We are here to do a job.
All we ask from the management team is to do their part .You know manage.
Or have they forgotten?
When they start managing, then we should consider providing any additional help needed to bring the plan to success.

 

[Buck]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 6:56:03 PM j7915 wrote:

[blockquote]----------------On 1/25/2003 10:41:25 AM Buck wrote:


[BLOCKQUOTE]
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On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:


Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]


[/P]For once Bob I agree with you. Those at AA woulf be better off than with a judge at Bankruptcy. I was just wondering where our wages would have been if the B-scale would have never materialized and Crandle would not have had his Window of Opportunity? Negoiated concessions without the aid of the courts. We should be careful and not negoiate to much away.----------------[/blockquote]

Well Buck look at the seniority list, you may have been hired, but many below you would not. In 1983 the retirement dates for the 727s was set, the 747s were gone, and the MD80s still on their initial long term loaner contract. Crandall would simply not have expanded as much.

Are there any judges out there who care for the workingmen enough to buck the financial interests? I have yet to hear of a ch11 where the workers did well, now the BK trustees and other legal beagles...
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[/blockquote]
I have looked at the Seniority List. I know that many including myself may not have hired. But these hirings over the years were at a great cost. Ask Bob Owens. No employees do not do well at bankruptcy. But do we not have the power of the AFL-CIO behind us? Maybe if AA files bankruptcy, the AFL-CIO will call a nation wide strike and shut this country down. Who does the President think he is anyway? The President of the United States?, some nerve. If we only had Mr. Clinton back labor would show them a thing or two.

 

[nyc6035]

A nationwide strike? Where do you think you are, Venezula? Has the AFL-CIO actually ever called a strike of this type? What makes you think some 100K jobs at AA would motivate them to do so? I truly think you guys need to wake up and very quickly smell the coffee before it's too late. You'll do MUCH worse in front of a Bankruptcy Judge than you will outside of C11.

And with regards to the comment about how you'll tell the judge you'll resist taking wage reductions and that he'll need to consider that for the sake of the creditors. Let me clear this point up for you...the judge will consider it...and he'll quickly decide with the creditor's backing that 'it isn't worth it' and they'll go striaght to C7 and liquidate and gain what they can on the assets by selling them. You have to understand the BK process this there to extract the maximum value for the creditors...certainly not the employees. Whatever will provide the greatest return on assets is the avenue they'll pursue. So...if for example MD80's will provide greater lease or sale rates by being sent over to Jetblue vs. keeping them over at high-cost AA, that very well could happen.

This is an ugly, ugly process. Just ask any of your co-workers from TWA...if you can find any that haven't been layed off.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

[FONT size=1]Getting the strangest feeling of Deja Vu...[BR][BR]Some of these posts could be pre bankruptcy from the UAL and US boards.[BR][BR]We had better smarten up,thats all I'm going to say.[BR][BR]Hey, just for kicks which airline had its CASM [EM]rise[/EM] while posting a whopping loss for the year?[BR][BR]Which airline currently has the [EM]highest[/EM] costs per ASM these days?[BR][BR]Which airline saw its RASM performance show a dismal 2.6% increase compared to the rest of the industry?[BR][/FONT]

 

[rampguy]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?
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[/blockquote]

You better believe they will

 

[Buck]

[STRONG][EM][FONT color=#ff3333]Has the AFL-CIO actually ever called a strike of this type?[/FONT][/EM][/STRONG] [BR][BR]Exactly!

 

[ITRADE]

[BLOCKQUOTE]
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On 1/25/2003 9:57:26 AM Bob Owens wrote:


Will the court dish out anything more bitter than a six year pay freeze as the company's profits soar?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]


[/P]

This reminds me of a terrific little quote from a great movie:

[A href="http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=4556&sound=25"]Wanna Jump???[/A]

 

[Connected1]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 8:02:38 PM limit wrote:

Even if they were in a coma in the 90's surely they were jolted out of it by 9/11.

All we ask from the management team is to do their part .You know manage.
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[/blockquote]

If all it takes to achieve record profits is comatose management, then bring on the deep sleep! It's gotta be better than (gasp!) asking the unions to care enough to act. I'm not sure what sort of business plan you're waiting for, but I'm pretty impressed with the one that has saved us $2B so far. If you've got a better business plan, I suggest you share it with Carty.

This is a time for action, not empty complaints.

 

[RV4]

[BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 11:15:44 PM nyc6035 wrote: [BR][BR]A nationwide strike? Where do you think you are, Venezula? Has the AFL-CIO actually ever called a strike of this type? What makes you think some 100K jobs at AA would motivate them to do so? I truly think you guys need to wake up and very quickly smell the coffee before it's too late. You'll do MUCH worse in front of a Bankruptcy Judge than you will outside of C11. [BR][BR]----------------[BR][BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]It is obvious and apparent that most Liberals need someone to blame for all things. Not any different will be the union employees of AA of which most appear to have liberal tendancies and lifestyles. It will be an invited event to be able to blame a Judge or a Politician for our failures, rather than look in the mirror and accept any accountability for the industry demise.[BR][BR]Crazy thing about this upcoming scenario is that the problem isn't really wages. It is our productvity, our attitudes, the company business model, and most importantly a scewed supply versus demand ratio.[BR][BR]Judge lowers wages across the industry,[BR] [BR]passenger demand doesn't change,[BR][BR]all airlines lower ticket prices still further to retain customer base, [BR][BR]passenger demand doesn't change,[BR][BR]losses continue,[BR][BR]passenger demand doesn't change,[BR][BR]until someone pulls the plug on massive numbers of available seats![BR][BR]Which Airline wants to reduce capacity or go out of business first? [BR][BR]There is NO leader in the industry anymore, they all suck and refuse to accept the truth.[BR]

 

[Winglet]

The airline industry is much too capital intensive to endure wild swings in demand. Two years ago I was flying my hiney off and the airline was hiring 100 new pilots a month and expanding like crazy due to demand. When the economy slowed, then these Islamic terrorists slaughtered 3000 people, destroyed a few billion dollars worth the buildings, and destroyed airliners probably worth 300 million dollars, it's pretty hard to adjust even in a couple of years.

The same inane people on this board that are complaining about overcapacity in the airlines today are the same ones that will be complaining about not being able to buy a seat on an airplane when the economy booms again and the capacity is half what it used to be.

We aren't selling hula-hoops made by 25 cent an hour Chinese factory slaves here.

Mr. Bush and our goverment need to decide if they want a domestic aviation industry or not, because in a year or so, they're not going to have much of a coherent one. No policy is not much of a policy.

 

[RV4]

[STRONG]An excellent list of BLAME![BR][BR]Sure you didn't miss someone?[/STRONG]