Could It Be That American Unions Are To Blame?

[aafsc]

Interesting Statistics From USAToday.

[post="301371"][/post]​

Yes, this is an interesting graph because it shows that operating costs are not just labor costs. In addition to the concessions, AA reduced it's costs by making operational changes. Doing things like adding the seats back in coach, depeaking, fewer aircraft types in the same cities, same flight crews with the same plane all day, and aggressive fuel conservation measures have culminated in a noticable decline in AA's costs. Of all the legacies, AA has done far far more than the others in reducing non-labor costs. Want more proof? Look at SW. They pay their people much more than the legacies and yet their costs are at or near the bottom. The reason they can do that is because they run an extrememly efficient operation. Also, their fuel hedges worked to their advantage.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Worse, if Liu's research is correct, we may see Cat 6 and Cat 7 storms, which currently don't even exist in the classification system.

[post="301827"][/post]​

And if he's wrong, we get the same storms but because of global warming. According to his research, the cycles are getting short between placid and hyperactive stages. Or, he is wrong and the cycle is not do to switch to hyeractive for another 500-1000 years and this new hyperactive is entirely due to global warming. If he is wrong, I'd hate like hell to know what the real hyperactive stage would look like.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Its a unionized company.

The same unions that are at SWA are at other carriers, the difference is management, not the unions.

What brings you to the conclusion that SWA is not a "union company"? Could it be simply because the conditions and relationship there do not fit into your preconcieved notions of how unions and companies can be mutually successful?

[post="301913"][/post]​

Yes they do work well together. As I have posted before the union at Southwest is nothing more than a glorified HR department. Which I think is a good thing because most HR departments are worthless departments designed to lie to the labor force and do managements #### work. Southwest’s union doesn’t interfere with the internal workings of the company. Southwest began as a strong people company and has never waived from that stance. That’s why I don’t understand why you guys just don’t quit the companies you despise so much. Believe it or not there is a life outside the aviation industry.

 

[TWU informer]

Somebody needs to do something the AA/TWU lead in the race to the bottom.

No Airline yet, can match the superior leader in legacy carrier pay and benefit concessions.

Even the scab Play the Odds wouldn't work at AA for the pay and benefits currently paid.

 

[Skymess]

[/QUOTE]

As I read the other airlines bulletin boards and posting after posting attempts to blame someone or something for the airline industry BK filings.

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.

Is it possible, that the working men and women of AA, have actually placed harship on our fellow workers in the industry by past and current industry leading concession bargaining? Afterall, how many "first" when it comes to concessions has the AA Union Workforce Championed?

I agree with you. The APFA, and certain members who voted yes to concessions, see our current profitable status as proof that they made the right decision to make us take this contract.

I see it that AA helped make the industry concession domino effect a reality by agreeing to much steeper cuts than we should have.

The alternate scenario to the FA vote being validated No, as it should have been, would have been that we negotiate an agreement that would not have bottomed us out so totally. The people with the most to give, the pilots, still have their incredible retirements. I truly resent that I have been paupered so that people can retire millionaires.

I think that even if we did go to bankruptcy it would have been a short stint. We probably would have renegotiated leases, and other costs and I truly doubt they would have gotten such a big chunk of money out of my pocket. It took United FA's two pay cuts to almost equal what my union gave back willingly.

The only positive thing that I can say about management is that they at least took our concessions and came up with a viable business plan. United, US Airways, and Delta, took their employees money and THAT was their business plan. I think the management team has done a pretty good job turning things around. They just need to give more to premium customers and stop nickle and dimeing them to death.

As for future concessions, there isn't much more for us (the FA's) to give back that my union isn't already currently giving up now that they are more chummy with AMR and making new letters of agreement daily. APFA sucks. The alternatives are worse. Sad. But that's life.

All in all, I think we seriously helped the decline of the industry in terms of our pay cuts but I also think the poor management at those other airlines helped. I think that the government also acted too little too late by not making the bankruptcy laws effective immediately. Why bother to make them effective after October when so many were leaking money to begin with? The next thing bankrupt will be the PBGC.

If these companies restructure and lower costs significantly, and the fuel prices stay high, I wouldn't rule out AMR having to declare under the new rules and wind up going out of business before any of the others. It's always the wild card that surprises you.

 

[Bagbelt]

There would be no precedent, so whether it would actually work any differently would be hard to tell. In short, no airline currentlly operating can survive long term with jetfuel prices as they are. It is tempting for business to come up with cheaper and cheaper compensation plans, but past a certain point no one in their right mind would work. I will allways believe that I can run an outfit with half the guys we have if you give me 50 guys who are highly paid and want to be there instead of 100 who don't care. As far as concessions, in 83 the flood gates were opened, AA almost went under. It is convienient to allways blame the unions, but people forget this is a service sector job. The government took away the right to strike as a industry group 40 years ago. The deck is rigged, and to think that somehow that if the company can do as it pleases and labor is only allowed to self help if it is obvious that its at its last gasp, that its going to get better- its not. It should be obvious that when people seem proud that they are making the wages we made 15 years ago the mentality of whats out there.

 

[aafsc]

Somebody needs to do something the AA/TWU lead in the race to the bottom.

No Airline yet, can match the superior leader in legacy carrier pay and benefit concessions.

Even the scab Play the Odds wouldn't work at AA for the pay and benefits currently paid.

[post="302533"][/post]​

I believe the scab, Play the odds, is working at NWA for about $26 an hour as to where AA mechanics are making around $32 an hour with benefits and pension accrual. Also, AA has not had the lowest wages over the years. That award goes to Continental, TWA, and now goes to USAir, NW, and United.

 

[aafsc]

As I read the other airlines bulletin boards and posting after posting attempts to blame someone or something for the airline industry BK filings.

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.

As we sit here working for AA, which all analyst say is in good financial shape, and without fuel price increases would have posted record profits.

Is it possible, that the working men and women of AA, have actually placed harship on our fellow workers in the industry by past and current industry leading concession bargaining? Afterall, how many "first" when it comes to concessions has the AA Union Workforce Championed?

Could it be that AA Union's are now so company oriented that the leadership of these organizations are actually harming other workers as much as Walmart, or any other cut throat low cost company?

I just figure that if we are going to walk around the planet looking for someone of something to blame for airline industry woes, then those that capitulated industry leading concessions, placed as much competetive pressure on other airlines and their workforce, as many other issues have also.

One thing about it though...

As of right now...

"WE'VE GOT OURS BROTHER"

Organized Labor is more like organized company union dog eat dog.

What really worries me the most?

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND :huh:

[post="300787"][/post]​

AA's labor agreements have had no impact on the other airlines. Over the years it was Continental and TWA that paid substantially less than AA. In NWA's case (AMFA), they were highest paid. Suppose there were no concessions at AA. NWA AMTs still would have made what they made and the result (BK) would still be the same. Look at Delta, they went BK and they are mostly non-union; they can alter their payscales at a moments notice. AA was the industry leader in terms of trying to raise fares only to have them shot down every time by NWA's refusal to follow. And Delta's simplifares did not help either. What has driven most of the airlines to bankrutpcy is the culmination of depressed ticket prices, $65-$70 a barrel crude oil (which translates to over $80 for a barrel of jet fuel), increases in security costs, and upcoming debt and pension payments.

 

[Buck]

I believe the scab, Play the odds, is working at NWA for about $26 an hour as to where AA mechanics are making around $32 an hour with benefits and pension accrual. Also, AA has not had the lowest wages over the years. That award goes to Continental, TWA, and now goes to USAir, NW, and United.

[post="302692"][/post]​

Could explain Continentals OSM ( Overhaul Support Mechanic ) classification and where they are currently employed?

 

[Bagbelt]

I would explain it as shortsightedness over the years by A scalers who traded work rule concessions for new hires for pay raises. Now they want you to take a hit to keep the pension.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I would explain it as shortsightedness over the years by A scalers who traded work rule concessions for new hires for pay raises. Now they want you to take a hit to keep the pension.

[post="302772"][/post]​

Don't start with the divisiveness thing.

And don't blame any one group for anything. All contract language was introduced by the TWU International, with pro forma approval by the Presidents' Council. the whole contract was then presented to the membership for a Yes or No vote on the entire contract.

.

 

[aafsc]

Could explain Continentals OSM ( Overhaul Support Mechanic ) classification and where they are currently employed?

[post="302697"][/post]​

Continental has no OSMs and SRPs because THEY CONTRTACT OUT ALL HEAVY MAINTANECE CHECKS. THEY HAVE NO HEAVY OVERHAUL MECAHNICS!

 

[Bagbelt]

I can't blame people for voting their interests. It just seems every post de-regulation contract has been a shell game. I've seen the senior guys react the most because they've never taken the hit before.

 

[TWU informer]

I can't blame people for voting their interests. It just seems every post de-regulation contract has been a shell game. I've seen the senior guys react the most because they've never taken the hit before.

[post="302906"][/post]​

Given Flex Benefits, Pre-Funding of Retirement Medical, and loss of Lump Sum Pension options, please explain which "senior guys" have not taken a hit?

 

[Bob Owens]

Continental has no OSMs and SRPs because THEY CONTRTACT OUT ALL HEAVY MAINTANECE CHECKS. THEY HAVE NO HEAVY OVERHAUL MECAHNICS!

[post="302801"][/post]​

So how about if the company and the union decide that from now on they wre only going to have Junior Fleet Service clerks and eliminate the title of FSC like they did with other titles. If you want a job tomorrow you will be at JFSC rates. Would that be OK with you simply becuase the work is kept in the TWUs house?