Concessions for jobs....yeah right! read on Tulsa

[Bob Owens]

Thank you for telling the truth. AMFA will give up as many overhaul jobs they can to get more money in to line AMT jobs. Nice. The number one reason why Tulsa will never vote for AMFA. Everyone I have talked to in TUL is either pro IBT or would rather stay TWU for now and wait until the merger is done. Neither the IBT or AMFA can unwind the existing contract.

Correct and at 6325 by 2017 how mant OH jobs will be left? Who is to blame for that?

The TWU admitted that they expect to lose at least 50% of OH in the near future and thats why they decided to reorganize the Locals.

Out of the 6325 they expect will still be here in 2017, 1500 are Title II, dont see them reducing that any more than they already have unless they cut service out of stations that are still staffed. So that leaves just just 4800 Title I, well line maint is roughly 3600 and they arent projecting decreases there like OH, so between Tulsa, AFW and DWH there will 1200 guys left in OH. Figure 500 for TAESL and you have 700 left for the rest of OH. 350 in Tulsa and 400 in DWH? Is it worth keeping Tulsa open for 350 guys?

What kind of seniority would you need to stay in Tulsa at 350? 1985 I think UAL has guys with less Seniority than that in SFO.


So who agreed to get rid of OH at AA? Tulsa did by voting YES. Who told them to vote YES to "save their jobs"?

 

[Bob Owens]

I have no doubt that the 2011 UAL contract is better than what we rejected in 2010. The point is that if we had accepted it we would be much closer to them. But, all this misses the basic point. The UAL mechanic agreement was negotiated five years after the Company exited bankruptcy. The rejected AA contract was negotiated a year before the Company entered bankruptcy. Our present agreement was negotiated in bankruptcy. Which mechanic agreement negotiated by another union in bankruptcy was better than contracts negotiated out of bankruptcy or after exit from bankruptcy?

Ok then lets compare our 2003 "out of BK" contract to UALs 2011 "out of BK" contract. Our out of BK contract lowered the standard across the industry to the point where UAL rejected the TA they had just struck with their mechanics in BK and USAIR had to back for seconds in BK.

 

[Bob Owens]

The retired AA mechanic's pension will be significantly larger than the retired UA mechanic because the AA mechanic in the examples above accrued pension benefits for seven extra years following the 2005 termination of the UA pension. Those seven years will more than make up for the extra year Bob mentioned.

A better apples to apples comparison would be to calculate the pensions for mechanics at both airlines who retired in 2005 when the UA pension was terminated (stopping further accruals).

Which is what I did, but I picked 2000.

The point was that our Union was being dishonest to us about the Pension twenty years ago. As far as figuring out who will end up with more thats anybodys guess, you have to be able to predict what will happen in the future. Will the "new AA" turn around and dump the pensions? Will the PBGC be able to keep its promises if they do? Any extra value that we are being promised for the extra 9 years in the pension was more than paid for with the concessions we took prior to BK and the fact that the concessions we gave after BK will keep us below industry standards for another 6 years, even with the Mid term wage adjustment. Even the company admits they arent paying us industry standards. Over the 15 year period we are giving up close to half a million dollars. Its doubtful that any of us will live long enough to collect an extra half a million dollars in our pensions.

So all things being equal the AA mechanics DB pension should be larger due to the extra 7 years compared to UAL, but his 401K balance from the company will be significantly smaller. UAL also had offered a $75K EO on top of the $40k they got in the BK when they terminated the Pension and still offers a Retiree medical where the company pays some of the cost.

 

[Bob Owens]

duplicate

 

[Bob Owens]

Correction, UAL didnt get $40k, they got a $40 million bond when they terminated the pension and they get a 5% contribution from the company for the 401K. In order for us to get the 5.5% we have to do without an additional 5.5% of our much lower earnings now. Even though UAL only contributes 5% they still give more because of their much higher wage rates.

 

[swamt]

Correct and at 6325 by 2017 how mant OH jobs will be left? Who is to blame for that?

The TWU admitted that they expect to lose at least 50% of OH in the near future and thats why they decided to reorganize the Locals.

Out of the 6325 they expect will still be here in 2017, 1500 are Title II, dont see them reducing that any more than they already have unless they cut service out of stations that are still staffed. So that leaves just just 4800 Title I, well line maint is roughly 3600 and they arent projecting decreases there like OH, so between Tulsa, AFW and DWH there will 1200 guys left in OH. Figure 500 for TAESL and you have 700 left for the rest of OH. 350 in Tulsa and 400 in DWH? Is it worth keeping Tulsa open for 350 guys?

What kind of seniority would you need to stay in Tulsa at 350? 1985 I think UAL has guys with less Seniority than that in SFO.


So who agreed to get rid of OH at AA? Tulsa did by voting YES. Who told them to vote YES to "save their jobs"?

Hey Bob, this post made me think of something. I can see it now Bob, the Overspeeds, Realityck, CIO ect.. will all twist this around as such. Let's look down the road, say July or Aug. Let's just say, hypothetically, AMFA won the representational election at AA. Now AMFA is the new union at AA. Now fast forward to 2017, where alot of members have lost their jobs down to 6325. All the industrial unions will be blaming the crap out of AMFA for losing those jobs when in fact it was the TWU at the time the contract language was nego and agreed upon. You see, this is the exact same thing that happened at UAL. The IAM was the representational union at UAL when they too nego and agreed to the closure of maint facilities and the loss of numerous jobs. It took affect only after AMFA won an election to represent the mechanics and related, so they all twist it all up to try and make it look like it was AMFA, when AMFA is merely "forced" to take over the contract previously nego by the prior unions. I can see it now Bob...

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey Bob, this post made me think of something. I can see it now Bob, the Overspeeds, Realityck, CIO ect.. will all twist this around as such. Let's look down the road, say July or Aug. Let's just say, hypothetically, AMFA won the representational election at AA. Now AMFA is the new union at AA. Now fast forward to 2017, where alot of members have lost their jobs down to 6325. All the industrial unions will be blaming the crap out of AMFA for losing those jobs when in fact it was the TWU at the time the contract language was nego and agreed upon. You see, this is the exact same thing that happened at UAL. The IAM was the representational union at UAL when they too nego and agreed to the closure of maint facilities and the loss of numerous jobs. It took affect only after AMFA won an election to represent the mechanics and related, so they all twist it all up to try and make it look like it was AMFA, when AMFA is merely "forced" to take over the contract previously nego by the prior unions. I can see it now Bob...

Well we dont see UAL guys here blaming AMFA, I would imagine if things played out as you say the guys at AA would remember the truth as well. Notice that the mechanics at UAL did not go back to the IAM when they left AMFA.

 

[700UW]

But there is an IAM card drive going on at UAL.

 

[Bob Owens]

But there is an IAM card drive going on at UAL.

From what I read there is an AMFA drive as well.

 

[700UW]

Yes I heard there is a drive for both.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes I heard there is a drive for both.

Heard the IAM is looking for 4000 cards from AA mechs as well.

So the TWU thinks they got a lock on the post merger AA, so we have TWU, AMFA, IBT and now IAM in the mix at AA

At UAL we have the IBT, IAM and AMFA in the mix, maybe the TWU would have better luck there than the highly publicized but short lived drive at SWA.

And in the meantime nobody is courting the mechanics at Delta, Jet Blue or Fed Ex!

 

[1AA]

Heard the IAM is looking for 4000 cards from AA mechs as well.

So the TWU thinks they got a lock on the post merger AA, so we have TWU, AMFA, IBT and now IAM in the mix at AA

At UAL we have the IBT, IAM and AMFA in the mix, maybe the TWU would have better luck there than the highly publicized but short lived drive at SWA.

And in the meantime nobody is courting the mechanics at Delta, Jet Blue or Fed Ex!

. IAM can not collect from the AA guys. AFL-CIO no raid clause. We are still separate airlines. When the SCS is filed and in affect then the IAM can collect for a run off if it gets to that point. With all the back door deals of the twu and IAM who knows what will happen when that time arrives. All I know is that the teamsters have no place in this fight with AA or USAIR.

 

[700UW]

The IAM can once the merger is approved, then it's not considered a raid.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Has anyone else noticed that our 4.8% equity is getting less and less? Now the TWU claims they are entitled to some of it to pay for BK expenses and grievance expenses. As far as the BK, AA is paying them for the expenses, as far as grievances, isn't that what we pay dues for? Also still no word on how they will distribute it. I am smelling a rat right now.

 

[Flying low]

Has anyone else noticed that our 4.8% equity is getting less and less? Now the TWU claims they are entitled to some of it to pay for BK expenses and grievance expenses. As far as the BK, AA is paying them for the expenses, as far as grievances, isn't that what we pay dues for? Also still no word on how they will distribute it. I am smelling a rat right now.

I'll be surprised if we see anything at all.