Concessions for jobs....yeah right! read on Tulsa

[Bob Owens]

Not taking up for Parker, but the outsourcing on the East wasnt done by Parker, and he has actually brought more maintenance and reservations work back in-house.

Of course he did, look at your wages, the only place where they work for less is AA!

 

[Bob Owens]

Old timers lol check the senority list.

most guys started hiring in 85

i bet there is less than 300 guys with over 30 years

85 is 27 years ago, that makes you an old timer. I just realized that I'm an Old Timer when I bid last week. Number 9 on the Mechanics list, 15 at a station with over 300.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

overspeed, overspin, overhimself who ever you are

you mention outsourcing oversee committees (RO)? Really?

you failed to mention all the work being done in our south american stations and europe under the TWU watch of the 1990's and today.
we complained about this work being done...A checks, ps checks , and work cards....a300, 757,767, and 777.

we showed the workload being done at those stations and we said it was our work. If there was an emergency understandable but this was scheduled work every day. we then said if the work is scheduled maintanance then it should be considered outsource work and put in to the RO committee and published as outsourced work which would raise the percentage.

what happened, the TWU agreed with AA management that they were American Airlines employees in south america and LHR so it is not outsourcing. Non-union members doing our work and that is not outsourcing? sounds like overspin or overspeed talk.

so the outsourcing percentage that was being published( (20%)was innacurate and misleading. what other work is being outsourced that is claimed not to be our work?

with the new language, the TWU are allowing more work under their watch outside US and still claiming it is not outsourcing.

so the outsourcing claim is a spin on the reality and typical of the TWU in attempt to make them look better than they are.

The TWU can spin 2003 and 2012 anyway they want but the reality is the company got the industry leading concessions and the jobs and they continue to spin it every which way. But the bottom line is that we are the worst in the industry and that is nothing to brag about

 

[LAX AMT]

Overspeed will be getting what's due to him soon enough. A job as a clerk at QuikTrip. Him and the rest of that 74%. Fools are digging their own graves for their careers. Wait for it, wait for it!

 

[Bob Owens]

Overspeed will be getting what's due to him soon enough. A job as a clerk at QuikTrip. Him and the rest of that 74%. Fools are digging their own graves for their careers. Wait for it, wait for it!

Well they expect M&R, thats Title I and II, to be down to just 6325 by 2017. That does not bode well for OH. Overspeed, well just as he hasnt been affected by what has already happened its doubtful this will affect him either.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I wonder what John Hewitt says about 50% reduction in overhaul?
oh thats right, he said we saved jobs!!

 

[Overspeed]

overspeed, overspin, overhimself who ever you are

you mention outsourcing oversee committees (RO)? Really?

you failed to mention all the work being done in our south american stations and europe under the TWU watch of the 1990's and today.
we complained about this work being done...A checks, ps checks , and work cards....a300, 757,767, and 777.

we showed the workload being done at those stations and we said it was our work. If there was an emergency understandable but this was scheduled work every day. we then said if the work is scheduled maintanance then it should be considered outsource work and put in to the RO committee and published as outsourced work which would raise the percentage.

what happened, the TWU agreed with AA management that they were American Airlines employees in south america and LHR so it is not outsourcing. Non-union members doing our work and that is not outsourcing? sounds like overspin or overspeed talk.

so the outsourcing percentage that was being published( (20%)was innacurate and misleading. what other work is being outsourced that is claimed not to be our work?

with the new language, the TWU are allowing more work under their watch outside US and still claiming it is not outsourcing.

so the outsourcing claim is a spin on the reality and typical of the TWU in attempt to make them look better than they are.

The TWU can spin 2003 and 2012 anyway they want but the reality is the company got the industry leading concessions and the jobs and they continue to spin it every which way. But the bottom line is that we are the worst in the industry and that is nothing to brag about

You obviously don't actually read the contract you bad mouth.

All work done outside the US by non-TWU labor counts as outsourcing and part of the 35%. Line work is limited to 15% of the total line direct labor and material.

Your right about the 20% outsourcing percentage being misleading. The F41 number is too high because the RB211, Trent, and Tay work is shown as repairs (or outsourcing) in the F41 even though the work is done by TWU labor at TAESL. When that work is added back in the actual outsourcing percentage is closer to 10%.

No one said the 2003 and 2012 deals were great. The concessions were far better than the upwards of 25% pay cut at NW imposed after AMFA took the AMTs on an ill advised strike. They were far better than all the work that was outsourced at US, UA, and DL along with all those airframe overhaul jobs. And the nine additional years of pension credit was a good thing as well. For nine years you were making more than UA, US, and DL AMTs even with the concessions Chuck. Now we are making less but that wouldn't have been had we voted in the 2010 deal. We would have been making more than all of them for the past three years.

Thanks Chuck for that recommendation on voting no because a better deal was coming.

 

[paul1]

well tulsa and afw voted against working weekends lol in 2010.I'm sure all of tulsa was listening to chuck back then . NOT.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

No one said the 2003 and 2012 deals were great.

The concessions were far better than the upwards of 25% pay cut at NW imposed after AMFA took the AMTs on an ill advised strike.

Overspeed you're correct and NO one will say that the concessions of 2003 or 2012 are acceptable either.
With No snap back clause in 2003 we let AA fleece that as well as everything else.

Now in 2012 you and the rest of the TWU Intl let AA trade jobs for what? AA still closed AFW, forced guys to other stations, while AA is hiring off the street. Just what did we get for this Fu%&ing?

AMFA took its members into a strike because NWA was going to cut pay by the amount you quote and contract 50% of A/C maintenance. The airlines are doing that as a way to cut cost. Your just saying that because AA is the last of the carriers to contract out the work. That's because we gave up so much in 2003. They could delay the process. Now we are buying a new fleet for AA with our wage give backs and Painting the older aircraft.
All of that is coming out of my pay check but you get your Intl Money so no skin off your back. Your pension from the TWU is still intact isn't it?

When we the AMFA organizer get the required cards you and the rest of the TWU will be nothing but a memory.

A very BAD Memory, you guys have taken advantage of the employees at AA long enough.​

AMFA at AA in 2013​

 

[Chuck Schalk]

You obviously don't actually read the contract you bad mouth.

All work done outside the US by non-TWU labor counts as outsourcing and part of the 35%. Line work is limited to 15% of the total line direct labor and material.

Your right about the 20% outsourcing percentage being misleading. The F41 number is too high because the RB211, Trent, and Tay work is shown as repairs (or outsourcing) in the F41 even though the work is done by TWU labor at TAESL. When that work is added back in the actual outsourcing percentage is closer to 10%.

No one said the 2003 and 2012 deals were great. The concessions were far better than the upwards of 25% pay cut at NW imposed after AMFA took the AMTs on an ill advised strike. They were far better than all the work that was outsourced at US, UA, and DL along with all those airframe overhaul jobs. And the nine additional years of pension credit was a good thing as well. For nine years you were making more than UA, US, and DL AMTs even with the concessions Chuck. Now we are making less but that wouldn't have been had we voted in the 2010 deal. We would have been making more than all of them for the past three years.

Thanks Chuck for that recommendation on voting no because a better deal was coming.

ask the pilots, they did not get their contract thrown out, they negotiated just like I said would happen to us if we voted it down. nice overspin again

 

[Bob Owens]

Your right about the 20% outsourcing percentage being misleading. The F41 number is too high because the RB211, Trent, and Tay work is shown as repairs (or outsourcing) in the F41 even though the work is done by TWU labor at TAESL.

For nine years you were making more than UA, US, and DL AMTs even with the concessions

The work thats done at TEASL is not counted as part of the 35%. If that work goers away and the TWU members lose their jobs is not counted, the percentage outsource is adjusted "accordingly".

Nine years? I doubt that, maybe using Donnelley's AA approved math. US yes, maybe, but not Delta or UAL, UAL only took a 14% paycut in Dec of 2002, until then their pay was ahead of ours. Four months later we gave 25%, way more than them,. It wasn't until the second wave of concessions in 2005 that UAL, and Delta went as low as they were going. By 2010 both Delta and UAL were far ahead of AA. So if we ever made more than them it would have only been five years. If UAL and Delta were lower than AA at all I doubt that when you factor in things like vacations, Holidays and sick time that we were ever above them. Having to work at least 80 hours a year extra is the same as at least another $1/hr paycut. We also had the most expensive Medical and the worst OT rules.

 

[Realityck]

The work thats done at TEASL is not counted as part of the 35%. If that work goers away and the TWU members lose their jobs is not counted, the percentage outsource is adjusted "accordingly".

Nine years? I doubt that, maybe using Donnelley's AA approved math. US yes, maybe, but not Delta or UAL, UAL only took a 14% paycut in Dec of 2002, until then their pay was ahead of ours. Four months later we gave 25%, way more than them,. It wasn't until the second wave of concessions in 2005 that UAL, and Delta went as low as they were going. By 2010 both Delta and UAL were far ahead of AA. So if we ever made more than them it would have only been five years. If UAL and Delta were lower than AA at all I doubt that when you factor in things like vacations, Holidays and sick time that we were ever above them. Having to work at least 80 hours a year extra is the same as at least another $1/hr paycut. We also had the most expensive Medical and the worst OT rules.

You are incorrect. We were ahead of UAL in between 2001 and 2003 except for a few months. The reductions in UAL pay in 2003 were 13.5% in pay and all premiums. The result was that they were slightly behind us even after our concessions. However, that was also the contract in which UAL got the right to unrestricted outsourcing of heavy checks. We went far ahead of UAL in 2005 when AMFA agreed to 3.9% in further reductions in pay and premiums and the UAL pension plan was terminated, among many other things. UAL did not go ahead of AA mechanics until late 2011, which was their first post bankruptcy agreement. We were ahead of Delta between 2001 and at least 2009. Delta pilots went ahead of our pilots in 2008 and far ahead when they negotiated the 2012 contract extension. UAL pilots went ahead of ours when they ratified their first post bankruptcy contract in 2012.

 

[Realityck]

ask the pilots, they did not get their contract thrown out, they negotiated just like I said would happen to us if we voted it down. nice overspin again

What are you talking about? The pilots’ contract was abrogated. After abrogation they did secure some improvements, but as the court documents make clear the Company and the creditors got all the savings they demanded. Pay rates remained the same -- below everyone except US Airways (who are still working under their 2005 contract). The improvements were a change in the industry average snap back formula which will be applied in 2015 to diminish the weight of US Airways (which is irrelevant now that there is a merger) and reduction in the number of seats that could be flown on RJs in AA’s system to match DAL and UAL. That still represented a major increase in seat limits. We, of course, are entitled to corresponding improvements in our contract, although DAL and UAL scope wouldn’t do us much good.

 

[exs]

We, of course, are entitled to corresponding improvements in our contract.

Didn't they say the same thing in 2003 with there stupid catch phrases "Share the Pain, Share the Gain" and this stupid ass union fell for it. Well they fell for it again with the company that has zero credibility.

May I ask you why this company reaches so far and they get what they want with this union?

Btw, the judge did abrogate the Pilot's contract, you just said they secured some improvements, while the TWU was running scared to Tulsa where people would listen to there lies. Didn't the TWU state the judge would abrogate and we would get the worse of the T/A's? Did the pilots get the worse of the deals?

Well you know the answer to that.

 

[Bob Owens]

You are incorrect. We were ahead of UAL in between 2001 and 2003 except for a few months. The reductions in UAL pay in 2003 were 13.5% in pay and all premiums. The result was that they were slightly behind us even after our concessions. However, that was also the contract in which UAL got the right to unrestricted outsourcing of heavy checks. We went far ahead of UAL in 2005 when AMFA agreed to 3.9% in further reductions in pay and premiums and the UAL pension plan was terminated, among many other things. UAL did not go ahead of AA mechanics until late 2011, which was their first post bankruptcy agreement. We were ahead of Delta between 2001 and at least 2009. Delta pilots went ahead of our pilots in 2008 and far ahead when they negotiated the 2012 contract extension. UAL pilots went ahead of ours when they ratified their first post bankruptcy contract in 2012.

Were we? We get paid by the hour. Vaction and holidays effectively increase the rate we are paid. I will use made up numbers for illustration because I cant be bothered looking them up. So if Mechanic AA makes say $34/hr and mechanic UA makes $33.50 an hour I guess you could say, that all other things being equal that mechanic AA earns more per hour than mechanic UA. But in the real world things are not equal and total compensation is made up of more than the hourly chart rate. Lets just look at Vacation first and see how that affects what we really earn per hour. Mechanic AA gets one week less of vacation at all steps than mechanic UA. So when we add in the value of vacation mechanic AA works 2040 hours for $70720, effectively increasing what he was paid for the year, not counting OT or Holidays to $34.67, mechanic UA works 2000 hours for $69680, so his effective rate for the hours worked is really $34.84. So once you factor in the Vacation even though the hourly chart rate for a mechanic at UA is 50 cents an hour less, the additional week of pay for hours not worked brings his effective rate nearly 20 cents an hour more than the AA mechanics. If we add in the holidays its even more, we net 20 hours extra pay by working the holidays, so our $70720 for 2040 actually worked becomes $71400 for 2040 hours worked, for a rate of $35/hr, but at UA the Holidays add 96 hours pay, so that adds $3216 to their annual pay, so for 2000 hours actually worked they walk away with $72896, for an effective hourly rate of $36.45. Thats $1.45 an hour more even though you will claim they earn 50 cents an hour less.

So maybe our chart rate was more, I'll take your word for it. but everything else that makes up compensation was less. In the example above you would run around saying that our pay was the highest, well as you can see there is more to pay than the hourly rate. In the example above their superior Vacation and Holiday package alone more than made up for the lower hourly chart rate. Add in better sick time, better health benefits, tool box allowance, passport fee reimbursement, their equity stake and other signing bonuses etc and they blew us away. Despite the fact AA is hiring we dont see anybody quitting UA to come to AA, but we do see more and more guys quitting AA and going to other employers both in and out of aviation.

This goes to the way the ATD has been decieving us for years. They will selectively pick things out and omit important things that alter values. Overspin and other keep running around saying that AA mechanics would have been paid more than UA and Delta had we accepted the 2010 deal, well they omit things from the UA contract, such as the $2/hr Geo pay that only people in Hawaii get at the moment, but leave in the $1.50 MRT that only workers starting within a narrow time frame would have recieved, omit both and UA and Delta come out ahead. The fact is the company had the ability where they could alter start times so nobody actually recieved the premium and they still would have 24/7 coverage. If you only counted things that everybody got UA and DL come out way ahead, thats why Tulsa rejected the deal, most of them would not have recieve the $2.55 line premium or the $1.50 MRT. The majority of our mechanics would have still been making around $4/hr less than their peers at those other carriers.So yes there is the possibility that some AA line mechanics would be paid more than some UAL mechanics but if we are going to count "all in" for the AA contract then then you have to count "all in" on the UA contract as well, including the GEO and taxi Premiums at UAL. Otherwise go to a weighted average, but that number would not be favorable to Overspins spin either.

Another spin that we were subjected to for many years was the pension multiplier. We were told by the Union that they negotiated a better pension than UAL because our multiplier was higher, 1.67 vs 1.65 at the time, what they left out was we lost the first year while UAL counted it. Lets see how that affects the pension;

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2000.
AA Mechanic 29 years x FAS $65000 x.0167=$31,479
UA Mechanic 30 years x FAS $65000 x .0165=$32,175

So as you can see losing the year wiped out any gain from the higher multiplier. The ATD would spin this around by including the phrase "years in the plan" and show graphs where with equal years in the plan the guy at AA would net more than the guy at UA, but thats deceptive.