Concessions for jobs....yeah right! read on Tulsa

[Vortilon]

Nice illustration Bob. That was a beat down. You know the International has just got to hate you. I could almost hear you slowing the cadence down - so the Yes voters could understand as well.

 

[FWAAA]

ask the pilots, they did not get their contract thrown out, they negotiated just like I said would happen to us if we voted it down. nice overspin again

Huh? Below is a link to the bankruptcy court's order authorizing AA to reject the collective bargaining agreement with the APA:

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/4293_15463.pdf

Eventually, the pilots agreed to the LBFO with minor trivial improvements.

 

[limit]

Lets see how that affects the pension;

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2000.
AA Mechanic 29 years x FAS $65000 x.0167=$31,479
UA Mechanic 30 years x FAS $65000 x .0165=$32,175


How about these also:

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2012.

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1980 and both retire on Dec 31 2012

 

[Bob Owens]

Lets see how that affects the pension;

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2000.
AA Mechanic 29 years x FAS $65000 x.0167=$31,479
UA Mechanic 30 years x FAS $65000 x .0165=$32,175


How about these also:

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2012.

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1980 and both retire on Dec 31 2012

How about it? Good luck trying to figure it out. By the way they still have retiree medical and dont forget to add in the $75,000 early Out, the $40k lump sum plus their equity stake.

 

[limit]

How about it? Good luck trying to figure it out. By the way they still have retiree medical and dont forget to add in the $75,000 early Out, the $40k lump sum plus their equity stake.

You know very well that even running your numbers for those different dates, the TWU pension would be 6000- 7000 dollars more than the UA pension.
You guys are doing the same things you acuse the TWU of doing .spin ,spin spin,.... from one set of liers to another.

 

[FWAAA]

How about these also:

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2012.

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1980 and both retire on Dec 31 2012

The retired AA mechanic's pension will be significantly larger than the retired UA mechanic because the AA mechanic in the examples above accrued pension benefits for seven extra years following the 2005 termination of the UA pension. Those seven years will more than make up for the extra year Bob mentioned.

A better apples to apples comparison would be to calculate the pensions for mechanics at both airlines who retired in 2005 when the UA pension was terminated (stopping further accruals).

 

[Bob Owens]

You know very well that even running your numbers for those different dates, the TWU pension would be 6000- 7000 dollars more than the UA pension.
You guys are doing the same things you acuse the TWU of doing .spin ,spin spin,.... from one set of liers to another.

Go ahead, run your numbers. I thought my post was clear enough but obviously not for you, the fact is when we both had pensions our ATD used to decieve us into thinking that our pension was better, the loss of the first year more than offest the higher multiplier. They used this deception as a means to hide other deficiencies in our contract at the time such as fewer sick days, less top out on vacation, longer progressions to top rate, prefunding retiree medical, paying a larger portion of our medical, and usually a lower wage.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

No Matter how or who spins it, the same result is going to Happen. O/H at AA is going to be a thing of the past.

As AA replaces the aircraft with newer fleets and types the need to have and pay for an overhaul facility is going to get less and less. Soon the MD-80 O/H lines will be gone? What is the plan for the mechanics and other support workers at
T-Town? Has the TWU answered that question?

What about the 757 we are sending those out for work now as we shed those even more O/H will go away.

We all have seen that AA has plans to send the 777 to china, leaving only the 767, which AA can't find a place to send that type of fleet since seems no wants the work.

The Painting of our A/C is being done outside as well, what has the TWU said or done about that?

More and more of the work that was done inhouse here at AA is and will continue to go away, that is the only way AA can stay competative as AA has put it. The cost to operate a base and its cost is not what the Airlines of today want to fund.

AA had a pension and that was something the TWU said " LQQK at what we still have ", well as the rest of corporate america has done. AA also has shed the pension for its TWU workers. The TWU said we will have the O/H well what is their plan to keep that? AA might have been able to keep the pension/overhaul to the last but it all has come at the expence of the workers of AA.

The TWU blames AMFA for all of it, at AS, NWA, UAL, but which union has the highest paid workers? "YES" there are less at the airlines which are represented by AMFA but LQQK at the size of those carriers as well. Only really Domestic carriers, one or two fleet types. Less Pilots and F/A as well. Trainng for them as well is less. Parts and fuel due to the fact NO wide body fleet.

We will all see just how well the IBT does at UAL with the contract and the intergration of employees.

AMFA did an ok job from what I hear at SWA with the A/T guys. WE here at AA screwed the TWA guys as well as the reno boys. The only ones AA took that faired well were the Aircal people.

Just wait until Oct. when DOT and NMB puts stamp on merger with USAir, which contracts it's maintenance as well,
Do you think Parker is going to keep a O/H facility when he shed that with USAir? The end is near O/H, wake up.

Did we have a say as to how that was done "NO" the Intl. did it all. At least with AMFA we would have a say.

It's time to bring AMFA to AA get back the MONEY the TWU has let AA take from US. The TWU does not put food on your families table neither will it provide for you after you retire. So we need to get our Money while we are working.

Do you want to share your food with the neighbor you dislike? "NO" so why share your money with fellow employees who you don't like or associate with. Just so you can have your pay reduced to keep him working. Harsh thing to say but if you think about it ?? You will see that is just the reality of it all. Selfish as it sound its true?

AMFA at AA in 2013​

 

[Realityck]

Didn't they say the same thing in 2003 with there stupid catch phrases "Share the Pain, Share the Gain" and this stupid ass union fell for it. Well they fell for it again with the company that has zero credibility.

May I ask you why this company reaches so far and they get what they want with this union?

Btw, the judge did abrogate the Pilot's contract, you just said they secured some improvements, while the TWU was running scared to Tulsa where people would listen to there lies. Didn't the TWU state the judge would abrogate and we would get the worse of the T/A's? Did the pilots get the worse of the deals?

Well you know the answer to that.

Exos Response


If the TWU had come back with the sort of modest improvements which the APA secured after contract rejection, none of which decreased the Company’s cost savings, both of us know that you and the other people on this board would have been urging rejections and accusing the TWU of another sell out. The point is that even though they didn’t get industry standard or even an increase in compensation in the second deal – and even though the Company got all the savings it demanded-- the pilots did not adopt the strategy urged here—let the Company abrogate and impose the term sheet until the union could get a release to strike. Nobody is crazy enough to do that.

 

[Realityck]

Were we? We get paid by the hour. Vaction and holidays effectively increase the rate we are paid. I will use made up numbers for illustration because I cant be bothered looking them up. So if Mechanic AA makes say $34/hr and mechanic UA makes $33.50 an hour I guess you could say, that all other things being equal that mechanic AA earns more per hour than mechanic UA. But in the real world things are not equal and total compensation is made up of more than the hourly chart rate. Lets just look at Vacation first and see how that affects what we really earn per hour. Mechanic AA gets one week less of vacation at all steps than mechanic UA. So when we add in the value of vacation mechanic AA works 2040 hours for $70720, effectively increasing what he was paid for the year, not counting OT or Holidays to $34.67, mechanic UA works 2000 hours for $69680, so his effective rate for the hours worked is really $34.84. So once you factor in the Vacation even though the hourly chart rate for a mechanic at UA is 50 cents an hour less, the additional week of pay for hours not worked brings his effective rate nearly 20 cents an hour more than the AA mechanics. If we add in the holidays its even more, we net 20 hours extra pay by working the holidays, so our $70720 for 2040 actually worked becomes $71400 for 2040 hours worked, for a rate of $35/hr, but at UA the Holidays add 96 hours pay, so that adds $3216 to their annual pay, so for 2000 hours actually worked they walk away with $72896, for an effective hourly rate of $36.45. Thats $1.45 an hour more even though you will claim they earn 50 cents an hour less.

So maybe our chart rate was more, I'll take your word for it. but everything else that makes up compensation was less. In the example above you would run around saying that our pay was the highest, well as you can see there is more to pay than the hourly rate. In the example above their superior Vacation and Holiday package alone more than made up for the lower hourly chart rate. Add in better sick time, better health benefits, tool box allowance, passport fee reimbursement, their equity stake and other signing bonuses etc and they blew us away. Despite the fact AA is hiring we dont see anybody quitting UA to come to AA, but we do see more and more guys quitting AA and going to other employers both in and out of aviation.

This goes to the way the ATD has been decieving us for years. They will selectively pick things out and omit important things that alter values. Overspin and other keep running around saying that AA mechanics would have been paid more than UA and Delta had we accepted the 2010 deal, well they omit things from the UA contract, such as the $2/hr Geo pay that only people in Hawaii get at the moment, but leave in the $1.50 MRT that only workers starting within a narrow time frame would have recieved, omit both and UA and Delta come out ahead. The fact is the company had the ability where they could alter start times so nobody actually recieved the premium and they still would have 24/7 coverage. If you only counted things that everybody got UA and DL come out way ahead, thats why Tulsa rejected the deal, most of them would not have recieve the $2.55 line premium or the $1.50 MRT. The majority of our mechanics would have still been making around $4/hr less than their peers at those other carriers.So yes there is the possibility that some AA line mechanics would be paid more than some UAL mechanics but if we are going to count "all in" for the AA contract then then you have to count "all in" on the UA contract as well, including the GEO and taxi Premiums at UAL. Otherwise go to a weighted average, but that number would not be favorable to Overspins spin either.

Another spin that we were subjected to for many years was the pension multiplier. We were told by the Union that they negotiated a better pension than UAL because our multiplier was higher, 1.67 vs 1.65 at the time, what they left out was we lost the first year while UAL counted it. Lets see how that affects the pension;

Mechanic at both carriers started Jan 1 1970 and both retire on Dec 31 2000.
AA Mechanic 29 years x FAS $65000 x.0167=$31,479
UA Mechanic 30 years x FAS $65000 x .0165=$32,175

So as you can see losing the year wiped out any gain from the higher multiplier. The ATD would spin this around by including the phrase "years in the plan" and show graphs where with equal years in the plan the guy at AA would net more than the guy at UA, but thats deceptive.

 

[Realityck]

Owens Response


You state that the rates were better at UAL and DAL for the last decade, I point out that you are wrong and you change the subject to pension and working conditions. Alright, let’s review pension. You say that the UAL pension was superior to AA’s because of the first year accrual even if the multiplier at AA was better. Well, you have also left out the fact that license and skill premium were pensionable under the AA formula well before they were at UAL, as was profit sharing (which I don’t know if UAL ever made part of the formula). We also had unreduced retirement at age 60. Most important, a UAL mechanic stopped accruing pension nine years before the plan was frozen at AA. You will have to look long and hard to find a UAL mechanic who retired in the last twenty years who has a higher payout than an AA mechanic who retired at the same age with the same years of service.

As for working conditions items like sick, holidays, and vacation, you better take a look at the 2005 UAL Bankruptcy Exit Agreement because the conditions in that contract are not much better than what we have. For example, sick pay was at 75% for the first six days of absence and there were six holidays. I am happy to find an accountant we both accept as objective (one not affiliated with AMFA or the TWU). What you will find is that the savings UAL got from terminating the pension plan and outsourcing all but three heavy checks would pay for the differences in time off and premiums (to the extent they are paid) several times over.

I have no doubt that the 2011 UAL contract is better than what we rejected in 2010. The point is that if we had accepted it we would be much closer to them. But, all this misses the basic point. The UAL mechanic agreement was negotiated five years after the Company exited bankruptcy. The rejected AA contract was negotiated a year before the Company entered bankruptcy. Our present agreement was negotiated in bankruptcy. Which mechanic agreement negotiated by another union in bankruptcy was better than contracts negotiated out of bankruptcy or after exit from bankruptcy?

 

[exs]

Exos Response


If the TWU had come back with the sort of modest improvements which the APA secured after contract rejection, none of which decreased the Company’s cost savings, both of us know that you and the other people on this board would have been urging rejections and accusing the TWU of another sell out. The point is that even though they didn’t get industry standard or even an increase in compensation in the second deal – and even though the Company got all the savings it demanded-- the pilots did not adopt the strategy urged here—let the Company abrogate and impose the term sheet until the union could get a release to strike. Nobody is crazy enough to do that.

TWU being a sell out is besides the point, Why does another group always have to fight our battles? Most of us who voted no knew that Company reached beyond what they really needed from us. All we wanted was to prove to the judge that we were last in the industry in pretty much in every category. Again the TWU went running scared and had their ugly lawyers making videos to scare the membership in Tulsa about what exactly the judge would do. I guess they had a crystal ball.

Now I ask you again did the company impose the worse of both term sheets on the Pilots? Like the TWU stated and was so sure about?

Let me ask you another question,

Do you see the Pilots or F/A's taking concessions for jobs?

Do you think they will give up anything they have fought for years to achieve to save jobs the company is going to lay off anyway?

When you have the President of the Pilots union and the President of the F/ A union are held accountable and have to live under the same conditions that there members do, it makes a lot of difference.

But it seems your in that Intl club since you seem to defend this Totally Worthless (sell out) Union and do not live under these conditions.


Go AMFA!!!!

 

[Overspeed]

No Matter how or who spins it, the same result is going to Happen. O/H at AA is going to be a thing of the past.

As AA replaces the aircraft with newer fleets and types the need to have and pay for an overhaul facility is going to get less and less. Soon the MD-80 O/H lines will be gone? What is the plan for the mechanics and other support workers at
T-Town? Has the TWU answered that question?

What about the 757 we are sending those out for work now as we shed those even more O/H will go away.

We all have seen that AA has plans to send the 777 to china, leaving only the 767, which AA can't find a place to send that type of fleet since seems no wants the work.

The Painting of our A/C is being done outside as well, what has the TWU said or done about that?

More and more of the work that was done inhouse here at AA is and will continue to go away, that is the only way AA can stay competative as AA has put it. The cost to operate a base and its cost is not what the Airlines of today want to fund.

AA had a pension and that was something the TWU said " LQQK at what we still have ", well as the rest of corporate america has done. AA also has shed the pension for its TWU workers. The TWU said we will have the O/H well what is their plan to keep that? AA might have been able to keep the pension/overhaul to the last but it all has come at the expence of the workers of AA.

The TWU blames AMFA for all of it, at AS, NWA, UAL, but which union has the highest paid workers? "YES" there are less at the airlines which are represented by AMFA but LQQK at the size of those carriers as well. Only really Domestic carriers, one or two fleet types. Less Pilots and F/A as well. Trainng for them as well is less. Parts and fuel due to the fact NO wide body fleet.

We will all see just how well the IBT does at UAL with the contract and the intergration of employees.

AMFA did an ok job from what I hear at SWA with the A/T guys. WE here at AA screwed the TWA guys as well as the reno boys. The only ones AA took that faired well were the Aircal people.

Just wait until Oct. when DOT and NMB puts stamp on merger with USAir, which contracts it's maintenance as well,
Do you think Parker is going to keep a O/H facility when he shed that with USAir? The end is near O/H, wake up.

Did we have a say as to how that was done "NO" the Intl. did it all. At least with AMFA we would have a say.

It's time to bring AMFA to AA get back the MONEY the TWU has let AA take from US. The TWU does not put food on your families table neither will it provide for you after you retire. So we need to get our Money while we are working.

Do you want to share your food with the neighbor you dislike? "NO" so why share your money with fellow employees who you don't like or associate with. Just so you can have your pay reduced to keep him working. Harsh thing to say but if you think about it ?? You will see that is just the reality of it all. Selfish as it sound its true?

AMFA at AA in 2013​

Thank you for telling the truth. AMFA will give up as many overhaul jobs they can to get more money in to line AMT jobs. Nice. The number one reason why Tulsa will never vote for AMFA. Everyone I have talked to in TUL is either pro IBT or would rather stay TWU for now and wait until the merger is done. Neither the IBT or AMFA can unwind the existing contract. AMFA doesn't have a chance as long as AMFA supporters like you keep saying how much they want to give up overhaul jobs to get paid more the elite line AMT.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Thank you for telling the truth. AMFA will give up as many overhaul jobs they can to get more money in to line AMT jobs. Nice. The number one reason why Tulsa will never vote for AMFA. Everyone I have talked to in TUL is either pro IBT or would rather stay TWU for now and wait until the merger is done. Neither the IBT or AMFA can unwind the existing contract. AMFA doesn't have a chance as long as AMFA supporters like you keep saying how much they want to give up overhaul jobs to get paid more the elite line AMT.

OVERSPIN

Again you just keep up the same ole line, AMFA giving up on O/H. Show me where Amfa gave up on O/H bases. My opinion is not what AMFA is about.

I simply stated that the airlines have done away with O/H. and that no matter which union is on property it is inevitable that here at AA its going to happen as well. Just because the TWU made deals to cut our pay to keep the base open longer only delayed this. The TWU has done better for AA instead of its members. Sure they have worked a few yrs longer but got older as well. Now the employees are closer to retirement age and have no pension and less savings because of the actions of the TWU. Now we don't have the retirement medical as well. The other airlines did away with that too. AA was just the last to do it. FACT. WE make less money now than we did yrs ago, as A&P mechanics in the airline biz. Its always been that way at AA.
Each contract the employees give back, with the promise of we will get em next time.

You guys took a 1% pay raise over 6yrs in the 95 contract. The top out a&p was at or about $27.00 an hr, in 1998. I went on strike at Eastern in 1989 making over $20.00 an hr. The TWU Gave up the 1st yr of eligibility for what, reduce from a 12yr to 5 yr to top out progression. Also created the A,B,C,D scale for mechanics 1991 contract.
.
If the NWA mechanics didn't get what they fought for we would be even further behind then we are now. 911 changed the industry, but the TWU has still screwed its members. Looking out for the companies best interest and the TWU dues rather than the financial benefits of it's dues paying members. Having a low paying job with less benefits is no better than having no job in the long run. Keep stringing the TWU supporters along hoping for the next time only to have our pay checks again go down
hurts each members family. We would of been better getting another job or changing careers that to be given hope that never is going to come.

The Tulsa guys are going to be gone, Parker will see to that. Then they will realize that the TWU has LIED to them but they all will be to old to start over. If it wasn't for the fact the cost of living in Tulsa is so low they wouldn't have what they have today because the TWU has kept our PAY down to keep the DUES coming IN. That is what I said.

 

[Bob Owens]

Exos Response


If the TWU had come back with the sort of modest improvements which the APA secured after contract rejection, none of which decreased the Company’s cost savings, both of us know that you and the other people on this board would have been urging rejections and accusing the TWU of another sell out. The point is that even though they didn’t get industry standard or even an increase in compensation in the second deal – and even though the Company got all the savings it demanded-- the pilots did not adopt the strategy urged here—let the Company abrogate and impose the term sheet until the union could get a release to strike. Nobody is crazy enough to do that.

Several Pilots have said to me that they were hoping that the mechanics would have voted NO and been standing there next to them. Things may have been different if we had. But be being the only ones ,politically, it was not a good position to be in. Maybe the pilots didnt get a bigger raise per se, but how much equity did they get? If the AA share is 72%, and the combined US-AA that emerges from BK is worth 13 Billion , and our share of the 72% of the $13 billion is 4.8% we only got an equity stake worth $449, 280,000 for $2.2 billion in concessions, less than 25 cents on the dollar. Our equity has to be spread over 20,000 TWU members, so the most we would see is $22,464 (UAL got $40,000 from a company that didnt have $5 billion in cash and 500 new airplanes on order).