Companies Role in integration matters

[nycbusdriver]

I guarantee you that there is no person, none, nada, zip who understands the US Airways pilot's sentiment better than me and the US Airways pilots will do everything and anything to never let the Nicolau Award be implemented.

I agree with the second part.

The first part is quite a stretch, though, based on the last LGA LEC election. I doubt things have changed a whole lot since then.

 

[Phoenix]

There is no list? Then what have the East pilots getting so excited about the last couple of months?

Since you are so hung up on the signature thing...

Hung up about a "signature thing"? How cavalier. You are completely missing the point.

Since you like analogies let's go with one that is relevant. You run for president in 2008 and beat Hillary. Being elected president doesn't make you the president. You ain't president until you swear the oath. Implicit to that oath is that the election was not rigged. If a very large number of the electorate believe the election was rigged but you want to swear in spite of a rigged election then you have to weigh the consequences. If you know the election was rigged you have to choose what you will swear to--to president or to having an honest election. Prater is weighing the consequences of his signature on the list that St. Nick provided.

The MECs on both sides are just blathering and trying to save ALPA's ar$e by pretending to represent their respective sides, apparently to the satisfaction of Prater who is cheering them on while he defers his responsability. Prater must get out his pen and swear one way or the other.

How poignant that Prater's oath on the list is motivated by manipulative ALPA-self-preservation rather than the truth of the standing terms of integration.

Question: How reliable is an oath uttered, or a signature penned, based on manipulative self-preservation?

ALPA nationals signature is the issue. If they deny their signature does in fact swear to the truth of the list according to the terms of integration then they deny the very reason they are supposed to sign it and disqualify themselves from being the agent of the pilots (Who's agent are they if they hide the truth?). If they agree that their signature does swear to the truth of the list, and find the terms of integration in order, yet refuse to sign it then they are once again disqualifying themselves from being the agent of the pilots (who's agent are they if they defer and equivocate, refusing their duty?)

The signature is the issue. Prater needs to get his pen out and swear to what is true.

 

[AWA320]

Um, the company has no response, as there is nothing to respond to.

The company has already intervened, before the list was published. They will be punished for that. To attempt to intervene now, like you suggest, in the midst of a lawsuit might be suicide for the principles.

Your ignorance, as well as immaturity, are showing like a giant zit. If you are representative, you guys are even worse than I thought.

Nark, I you just want to hurl insults and I hate to break this to you but that whole line including the question came off the HUB. The question is not mine. I do understand you need to insult me though, everybody gotta have something...

 

[ClueByFour]

News flash. If Prater's signature on St. Nick's gift results in USAPA, then USAPA will be the authority to sign the seniority list to deliver to the company. In such a case, USAPA would obviously find fault with Nicolau's "proposed" list and would not sign it, choosing to sign something different.

If you think that's actually going to work, I have about 1000 labor lawyers who are beating a door to the AWA side of the house to sue the propoposed USAPA into oblivion.

If ALPA thinks it might lose a decert effort, the very last thing it's going to do is sign and forward the list to the company. Bringing in USAPA won't solve this, despite what the blathering idiots who cooked it up believe. The West has ALPA and any successor by the short hairs on this issue. Don't believe otherwise.

 

[AWA320]

News flash. It isn't "ALPA's proposed integrated seniority list". The list does not belong to ALPA. But your use of the term "proposed" is insightful. The list was signed by Nicolau, not ALPA. (Contrary to the wisdom of one of your buddies, ALPA's signature is THE issue.) Mr. Prater is apparently scared to sign it, so it is not ALPA's list. The list is still Nicolau's "proposed" list to ALPA national. ("proposed"... I gotta give you all the credit.)

ALPA national must sign it for it be ALPA's solution. When ALPA signs a list it will no longer be "proposed", it will be THE list, even as the ink is still drying. The company doesn't have jack to do until ALPA tells them what the seniority is, with a wet signature at the bottom.

In case you missed it. Prater must SIGN a list. He has two options: 1. sign the Nic list or 2. declare Nic grossly out of line with ALPA merger policy requiring an effort to get a new "proposed" list.

East and West ALPA already signed to allow Nicolau to define the list, within ALPA merger policy. Prater is the only one holding up the show.

Why won't Prater sign it?

News flash. If Prater's signature on St. Nick's gift results in USAPA, then USAPA will be the authority to sign the seniority list to deliver to the company. In such a case, USAPA would obviously find fault with Nicolau's "proposed" list and would not sign it, choosing to sign something different.

The company would accept the SIGNED list, and life would move along. Of course there would be lawsuit, after lawsuit , after lawsuit. But the issue is the signature at the bottom of the integrated list. It doesn't matter if ALPA signs a list or if USAPA signs a list. The most recent signed list delivered by the Bargaining Agent is THE LIST, subject to never ending lawsuits.

Get it yet? Prater hasn't SIGNED a list. ALPA doesn't have a list.

Prater is slow rolling while the pilots and the company twist in the wind.

In closing, in case you missed it, management isn't the bad guy here. Prater continues to make sure of that.

I know that this is going to be difficult for you but try to stay with me. You state that if you decert that the list which was arbitrated under ALPA merger policy now becomes property of your new union USAPA. Well nothing could be further from the truth. You see, your mec agreed to the terms of the policy and now you don't like the outcome so you then do all you can to get out of your responsibility. Here is where you have been totally misled. The emergency order will be before a federal judge before the ink is dry on your decert card. Your tactics are the problem and you are in breach of what you agreed to thru your mec. This is why you decert effort makes absolutly no sense.

Yes so the lawn mower story here applies the work was done per the agreement and just because you found a better deal you wsih to get out of your agreed upon contract. I will break this down even further. You agree to the terms to purchase an automobile after you drive home you see a commercial for the same automobile at another dealer for 1500 less than you paid. You take the car back and state that you found the same car elsewhere for less. Should the dealership refund you the difference?? Should they take the car back and refund your money?? Should said dealer ask you if you had this clause in your contract???

Contract law is something I suggest you read or ask your legal advisor about. There is one thing you could bank on and that's getting sued should you attempt to breach your contract. Now I have heard that no amount of money would fix this for the east. I would like to see that via a vote rather than on this forum. I know that you have been thru fire and I feel for you. I sincerely doubt that we will see a fragmentation simply due to the fact that the company is still making money.

 

[Phoenix]

The West has ALPA and any successor by the short hairs on this issue. Don't believe otherwise.

Not my problem. I don't sign a seniority list.

Someone will eventually pull out their pen and swear to what is true, and the consequences will be what they will be.

 

[Phoenix]

..................double post deleted

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

You're like a broken record...this is the same banter we have heard over and over for the last 2 months. My post was refuting the notion from ussnark that the list will be overturned. Here is the real bottom line: The list will never be overturned and it will remain the only legal seniority list that is recognized by any judicial court. The list has already been accepted by the EC absent any evidence that merger policy was not followed, which Prater's direct quote says none has been. If anyone is unclear on that after reading the EC resolution and Prater’s comment’s – seek help.

I believe the best thing for the west is for you guys to decertify ALPA. You will be sadly mistaken if you think that will delay the LIST from being implemented. Without going into detail on the west legal options here - The opposite will be true.

As far as the Rice Committee is concerned…ALPO politics at its worst. Prater ought to be asshammed.

Decertify NOW!!! Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to have you guys tear apart ALPA for playing these types of games and not following their own constitution. They should be defending the award tooth and nail right now but instead they are a bunch of spineless politicians trying to "take it back" at the expense of every US Airways pilot!!!

As of yet, ALPA National has not attempted to impose any solution to the fact that the US Airways pilots cannot, and will not, ever accept the Nicolau Award on this property, period. The East MEC believes the ALPA EC got the line pilot message loud and clear.

The EC knows that without a doubt if they do forward the award the vast majority of US Airways pilots will believe it's time to leave ALPA. Why? Because they would have nothing left to stay in ALPA for and the decertification would proceed. Until then, it's up to the pilots, with that power given to both MEC's, to find a solution to the problem.

Here are the facts according to ALPA EVP Paul Rice, with his direct quotes in quotation marks:

- There is no timetable as to when or if the EC will ever release the list to the Company.

- The EC Resolution states that the merger process was followed, that ALPA remains neutral, and the two MEC’s need to work in the "real world" to find "realistic solutions."

- The intent of the EC Resolution and the Rice Committee is to now move the process of "finding solutions" to this issue forward. And if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations "without them.'

- The JNC talks will go forward, but not in the "traditional sense," and may include many different variations that we have not yet even considered.

The Rice Committee has provided 3 options for a settlement: separate contracts and separate operations, a joint contract and separate operations, or the AWA MEC entering into Section 6 negotiations.

The US Airways pilots and their MEC have agreed with both EC resolutions and they would likely be satisfied with the 3 options provided by the Rice Committee. However, to provide the AWA pilots and the US Airways pilots improved pay and benefits the US Airways MEC passed a resolution called "Equivalent Contract Negotiations." According to Arnie Gentile, ALPA Communications Committee Chairman, “It endorses the concept of equivalent contracts (separate contracts of comparable value for US Airways and America West pilots), but with permanent separate operations that will include preemptive contract language for protection in future mergers. This resolution provides a path to achieve both seniority protections and economic returns.â€

Furthermore, Gentile indicated MEC Chairman Captain Jack Stephan wrote a letter to all East pilots and addressed “equal pay for equal work and acknowledges that LCC’s 2nd quarter results demonstrate once again that US Airways is providing the profits and covering the losses of America West. He states that it is disheartening to learn that the AWA MEC actually approached management and relayed that the America West pilots would be outraged if the East Pilots were granted parity.â€

Here is the bottom line: If the AWA MEC does not agree to the EC Resolutions and the Rice Committee recommendations or without a separate contract with separate operations that are permanent is negotiated for the East, there will not be a joint contract, there will be constant and permanent turmoil between the two pilot groups, ALPA will be decertified on both the East and West property, the East pilot group lawsuit will continue, and the West pilots will not get a pay raise unless they enter Section 6 negotiations.

It appears AWA MEC Chairman John McIlvenna honestly seems to think that the Nicolau Award will blow over, that the majority of the East pilot group would accept the award if they received a pay raise, and the US Airways MEC is misrepresenting the situation. Nothing, I mean nothing could be further from the truth.

I guarantee you that there is no person, none, nada, zip who understands the US Airways pilot's sentiment better than me and the US Airways pilots will do everything and anything to never let the Nicolau Award be implemented.

The only options the US Airways pilots will consider is a separate or joint contract with separate operations that are permanent. Why? This provides both the East and West pilot groups contract improvements and preserves each others career expectations. This would prevent the East pilots from bidding PHX/LAS and the West pilots form bidding bases east of the Mississippi River, which is fair. In addition, if the West pilots want to talk about joint growth or shared scope protections to prevent a “whip saw†then I believe the East pilots would be willingly to explore these protections, however, it must be done in the context of separate operations.

If not, then the turmoil will continue with no integration for about a decade. Thus, the AWA pilots have a choice: abide by the EC’s resolutions and the Rice Committee’s recommendations or fight forever and not obtain contract improvements unless it is done through Section 6 negotiations.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Phoenix]

... The list has already been accepted by the EC absent any evidence that merger policy was not followed, which Prater's direct quote says ...

Wrong.

“Let me first say that the resolution was passed unanimously by the Executive Council. In its resolution, the Council determined that ALPA’s role under Merger Policy is to provide a process for seniority integration, while remaining completely neutral on the outcome. The Council determined that no evidence had been presented to persuade them that any aspect of our Merger Policy process was not followed. It’s important to note that this does not constitute a ruling on the US Airways pilots’ request, but it does set forth the rules for deciding that request.

ALPA has chosen to say they haven't ruled on US Airways pilots' request but they have. ALPA national has declared that they only "provide a process". They have denied that they provided terms of an acceptable outcome. They will only comment on the "process". They have denied their own terms. They are denying the import of the terms and want to only own the "process", which is to deny that ALPA has a policy.

East argument was never about the process. It is that the terms of integration were grossly ignored. They argue a windfall resulted. There was plenty of evidence presented on that, but ALPA only said there was not evidence on the "process".

Prater doesn't even have the cajones to declare that "no windfall" resulted. That anyone would accept Prate's signature on the final list, with him denying that is complies with all aspects of the merger policy, is as useful to a union as he is.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Cactus,

Let me repeat myself because I believe you do not understand what I wrote.

Here is the bottom line: If the AWA MEC does not agree to the EC Resolutions and the Rice Committee recommendations or without a separate contract with separate operations that are permanent is negotiated for the East, there will not be a joint contract, there will be constant and permanent turmoil between the two pilot groups, ALPA will be decertified on both the East and West property, the East pilot group lawsuit will continue, and the West pilots will not get a pay raise unless they enter Section 6 negotiations.

Does that make sense, yet?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I'm wrong about a lot of things, but where was I wrong here? The EC ruled based on the constitution and bylaws which is very specific on their role and jurisdiction under ALPO merger policy. The problem here is the east MEC, and to some extent you guys posting here, think they are better able to interpret and apply merger policy than the EC. Well I hate to burst your bubble, but just because you do not agree with something does not give you the right to make up your own rules. You should have been more educated about ALPA merger policy going into a merger rather than trying to turn back the wheels of time in an aftermath. "Windfall is in the eye of the beholder"

ALPO has not handed the Company the list because they are hoping to placate the east and avoid decertification. They want their cake and eat it too. In the process they have alienated the west pilots and misled the east into thinking their is still hope at vacting the award. Please decertify this worthless piece of representation called ALPO!!!

Wrong.

“Let me first say that the resolution was passed unanimously by the Executive Council. In its resolution, the Council determined that ALPA’s role under Merger Policy is to provide a process for seniority integration, while remaining completely neutral on the outcome. The Council determined that no evidence had been presented to persuade them that any aspect of our Merger Policy process was not followed. It’s important to note that this does not constitute a ruling on the US Airways pilots’ request, but it does set forth the rules for deciding that request.

ALPA has chosen to say they haven't ruled on US Airways pilots' request but they have. ALPA national has declared that they only "provide a process". They have denied that they provided terms of an acceptable outcome. They will only comment on the "process". They have denied their own terms. They are denying the import of the terms and want to only own the "process", which is to deny that ALPA has a policy.

East argument was never about the process. It is that the terms of integration were grossly ignored. They argue a windfall resulted. There was plenty of evidence presented on that, but ALPA only said there was not evidence on the "process".

Prater doesn't even have the cajones to declare that "no windfall" resulted. That anyone would accept Prate's signature on the final list, with him denying that is complies with all aspects of the merger policy, is as useful to a union as he is.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I read you loud and clear, 5x5. Let me repeat what I have said all along. The ONLY legal option the east has is to continue with the JNC (maybe find solutions to the award to protect attrition) and ratify a JOINT contract, or keep voting one down. Outside of that option is a breach of the TA, for which a remedy will be quick and decisive. The Rice Committee will have to come to terms with the TA in any "solution" it comes up with. The interesting part here is to modify the TA ALL parties must agree, and that includes the Company.

Cactus,

Let me repeat myself because I believe you do not understand what I wrote.

Here is the bottom line: If the AWA MEC does not agree to the EC Resolutions and the Rice Committee recommendations or without a separate contract with separate operations that are permanent is negotiated for the East, there will not be a joint contract, there will be constant and permanent turmoil between the two pilot groups, ALPA will be decertified on both the East and West property, the East pilot group lawsuit will continue, and the West pilots will not get a pay raise unless they enter Section 6 negotiations.

Does that make sense, yet?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ClueByFour]

Here is the bottom line: If the AWA MEC does not agree to the EC Resolutions and the Rice Committee recommendations or without a separate contract with separate operations that are permanent is negotiated for the East

I'm curious since you have refused to answer this in the past (and probably will now, too): why do you think you (collectively) can hold a gun to the West's head when you had a chance to "explore consensual options for success" before arbitration?

The blustering is laughable, but it's blustering. Your MEC and NC could have done this before the arbitration and chose not to. You are living a result of your own making.

BTW--when is the east going to start agreeing to the EC resolutions? Your MEC gave Rice the finger and put out the only option it will consider. The AAA MEC is just as much in violation of Rice and the EC resolutions as the West, it's just not particularly good for your argument.

The intellectual dishonesty in conjunction with the righteous chest-puffery does make for good reading, though. The West MEC and their legal counsel have bested East at every turn, and there is no reason to believe it's going to stop.

there will not be a joint contract,

Which means you get LOA 93 forever, and probably sued by both the company (for violating the Transition Agreement) and the West (as a rebuttal to the useless lawsuit the East filed).

there will be constant and permanent turmoil between the two pilot groups,

I'm sure the higher paid guys out west are letting that fact bother them every time they hit an ATM.

ALPA will be decertified on both the East and West property,

Which will not change the outcome of the seniority arbitration, now or ever, and will result in the East guys going broke on the assessments as two thousand pilots out west don't pay dues.

the East pilot group lawsuit will continue,

Not that it matters. When you guys did not believe what Dan Katz was no doubt telling you about DOH, you went and found another lawyer with a sucker for a client. The client is still a sucker, and you still won't change the Nicolau outcome.

and the West pilots will not get a pay raise unless they enter Section 6 negotiations.

Which they probably will, and then sue the East into the stone age for a combination of DFR and violating the Transition Agreement. Unlike the East lawsuit, this one will have teeth.

Does that make sense, yet?

Given how very wrong you were with your prognostications about the outcome thus far (notably Nicolau), why would anyone believe you, or, for that matter, the resolve of a pilot group who was first to give up the pension, and set the bar for "industry basement" wages thru two bankruptcies? Really--you guys would not shut the place down the first or second time thru BK and you want the West guys to think that you will now?

I'd be laughing, too.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm wrong about a lot of things, but where was I wrong here? The EC ruled based on the constitution and bylaws which is very specific on their role and jurisdiction under ALPO merger policy…

You have missed what they have ruled on. ALPA EC is equivocating on what its role is, as you have indicated for its own survival.

ALPA has ruled on the Merger Policy Process. By inserting that qualifier (Process) they have pretended to have ruled on the Merger Policy and yet have denied the policy.

ALPA policy includes a 1. process and also 2. terms defining the resolution that will signify that the process has come to an end.

b. The purpose of arbitration shall be to reach a fair and equitable resolution consistent
with ALPA policy.

“fair and equitable” is defined by ALPA Merger Policy.

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

The Council declared that no evidence had been presented to persuade them that any aspect of our Merger Policy process was not followed. They have yet to declare that a "fair and equitable resolution consistent with ALPA policy" has been attained. The EC has further stated, "It’s important to note that this does not constitute a ruling on the US Airways pilots’ request [to rule on the terms of "fair and equitable according to ALPA merger policy], but it does set forth the rules for deciding that request[rules which exclude the terms that define the policy]."


It appears that ALPA EC has every intent to shirk their responsibility to the terms of ALPA Merger Policy in favor of just an ALPA Merger "process". In doing so they have failed both the West and the East. They are their own agent and neither side should support ALPA regardless of what short term benefit it might appear to be.

 

[USA320Pilot]

ClueByFour or should I say ClueLessBy Four, Jack Stephan's comments are the deep-rooted and true sentiment of the vast majority of the US Airways pilots.

Your posts are so off base that I no longer read them any more because they are a waste of time, especially from a clueless passenger.

I have reason to believe that Doug Parker and Scott Kirby believe the best approach is separate contracts and separate operations. It will be interesting to see of this proceeds or not.

However, it might not matter to me much to me since I now have a vehicle to retire early before age 60.

Regards,

USA320Pilot