Companies Role in integration matters

[AWA320]

Q. What’s the company’s response to ALPA’s proposed integrated seniority list? And can the company intervene to have it modified or thrown out?

A. The company has yet to receive an official list; but Senior VP of Flight Operations/InFlight Ed Bular addressed this very topic in “Ask the VP†on awaCompass and theHub.

Ed said, “The company's role in the seniority integration process is limited, and is spelled out in the Transition Agreement entered into by the East and West MECs in September 2005. Pursuant to the terms of the Transition Agreement, the integrated seniority list is determined in accordance with the ALPA Merger Policy, and the list is submitted to the Company by ALPA national for acceptance.â€

He continued, “At this time, we know that the list has been sent to both ALPA MECs. ALPA national has not yet submitted the list to the company. When they do submit the list, the company then evaluates the award to determine compliance with the five criteria set forth in the Transition Agreement. If all of the criteria are satisfied, the
company MUST accept the list; it does not have the discretion to unilaterally revise the list or to reject it, again, so long as the criteria are met.â€

Those criteria are:

No "system flush" whereby an active pilot may displace any other active pilot from the latter's position
Furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots
No requirement for pilots to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g., differential pay for a position not actually flown)
Allows pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed initial qualification training for a new category (e.g., A320 Captain or 757 First Officer) to be assigned to the position for which they have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the integrated seniority list
Does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase costs associated with training or company paid moves.
Back

 

[ussnark]

Q. What’s the company’s response to ALPA’s proposed integrated seniority list? And can the company intervene to have it modified or thrown out?

Um, the company has no response, as there is nothing to respond to.

The company has already intervened, before the list was published. They will be punished for that. To attempt to intervene now, like you suggest, in the midst of a lawsuit might be suicide for the principles.

Your ignorance, as well as immaturity, are showing like a giant zit. If you are representative, you guys are even worse than I thought.

 

[Phoenix]

Q. What’s the company’s response to ALPA’s proposed integrated seniority list?

News flash. It isn't "ALPA's proposed integrated seniority list". The list does not belong to ALPA. But your use of the term "proposed" is insightful. The list was signed by Nicolau, not ALPA. (Contrary to the wisdom of one of your buddies, ALPA's signature is THE issue.) Mr. Prater is apparently scared to sign it, so it is not ALPA's list. The list is still Nicolau's "proposed" list to ALPA national. ("proposed"... I gotta give you all the credit.)

ALPA national must sign it for it be ALPA's solution. When ALPA signs a list it will no longer be "proposed", it will be THE list, even as the ink is still drying. The company doesn't have jack to do until ALPA tells them what the seniority is, with a wet signature at the bottom.

In case you missed it. Prater must SIGN a list. He has two options: 1. sign the Nic list or 2. declare Nic grossly out of line with ALPA merger policy requiring an effort to get a new "proposed" list.

East and West ALPA already signed to allow Nicolau to define the list, within ALPA merger policy. Prater is the only one holding up the show.

Why won't Prater sign it?

News flash. If Prater's signature on St. Nick's gift results in USAPA, then USAPA will be the authority to sign the seniority list to deliver to the company. In such a case, USAPA would obviously find fault with Nicolau's "proposed" list and would not sign it, choosing to sign something different.

The company would accept the SIGNED list, and life would move along. Of course there would be lawsuit, after lawsuit , after lawsuit. But the issue is the signature at the bottom of the integrated list. It doesn't matter if ALPA signs a list or if USAPA signs a list. The most recent signed list delivered by the Bargaining Agent is THE LIST, subject to never ending lawsuits.

Get it yet? Prater hasn't SIGNED a list. ALPA doesn't have a list.

Prater is slow rolling while the pilots and the company twist in the wind.

In closing, in case you missed it, management isn't the bad guy here. Prater continues to make sure of that.

 

[Bear96]

News flash. It isn't "ALPA's proposed integrated seniority list". The list does not belong to ALPA. But your use of the term "proposed" is insightful. The list was signed by Nicolau, not ALPA. (Contrary to the wisdom of one of your buddies, ALPA's signature is THE issue.) Mr. Prater is apparently scared to sign it, so it is not ALPA's list. The list is still Nicolau's "proposed" list to ALPA national. ("proposed"... I gotta give you all the credit.)

You can twist it all you want to. The legally relevant facts are simple: the list was created pursuant to the policies of the union representing the East pilots, and the East pilots agreed to be bound by it.

 

[Phoenix]

You can twist it all you want to. The legally relevant facts are simple: the list was created pursuant to the policies of the union representing the East pilots, and the East pilots agreed to be bound by it.

Twist? I told you that the ALPA MECs agreed to let Nic arbitrate. Company doesn't have a list.


"THE legally relevant fact is simple"

Until the bargaining agent of the pilots SIGNS a seniority list then there is not one. Prater is your problem.

 

[ussnark]

Prater is your problem.

So simple even the westie moron cannot figure it out.

 

[Bear96]

Until the bargaining agent of the pilots SIGNS a seniority list then there is not one.

There is no list? Then what have the East pilots getting so excited about the last couple of months?

Since you are so hung up on the signature thing, let me try this analogy. You and I enter an agreement. You agree to mow my lawn, and in exchange, I agree to pay you $30.

You mow my lawn. After you finish, I decide I don't like the deal. I realize I could have gotten the kid down the street to mow the lawn for $20. You knock on my door for payment. I answer and, now wanting out of the deal, say, "Ha ha, I never signed anything. Therefore we didn't really have an agreement and I don't owe you anything. See ya!" <SLAMS DOOR>

In that example, am I in the right?

 

[ussnark]

There is no list? Then what have the East pilots getting so excited about the last couple of months?

Since you are so hung up on the signature thing, let me try this analogy. You and I enter an agreement. You agree to mow my lawn, and in exchange, I agree to pay you $30.

You mow my lawn. After you finish, I decide I don't like the deal. I realize I could have gotten the kid down the street to mow the lawn for $20. You knock on my door for payment. I answer and, now wanting out of the deal, say, "Ha ha, I never signed anything. Therefore we didn't really have an agreement and I don't owe you anything. See ya!" <SLAMS DOOR>

In that example, am I in the right?

That is not what happened.

ALPA merger policy mandated that no one would gain a windfall, so your undercutting mower would be out of luck.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Since we westie "morons" have a hard time figuring things out, can you give me your read on Prater's recent quote:

“Let me first say that the resolution was passed unanimously by the Executive Council. In its resolution, the Council determined that ALPA’s role under Merger Policy is to provide a process for seniority integration, while remaining completely neutral on the outcome. The Council determined that no evidence had been presented to persuade them that any aspect of our Merger Policy process was not followed. It’s important to note that this does not constitute a ruling on the US Airways pilots’ request, but it does set forth the rules for deciding that request.

If I recall, the EC resolution wrapped a pretty good protective barrier around the "LIST", and set the legal bar for overtuning the "LIST" out of reach for the east MEC. Please enlighten me on your take.

So simple even the westie moron cannot figure it out.

 

[ussnark]

Since we westie "morons" have a hard time figuring things out, can you give me your read on Prater's recent quote:

“Let me first say that the resolution was passed unanimously by the Executive Council. In its resolution, the Council determined that ALPA’s role under Merger Policy is to provide a process for seniority integration, while remaining completely neutral on the outcome. The Council determined that no evidence had been presented to persuade them that any aspect of our Merger Policy process was not followed. It’s important to note that this does not constitute a ruling on the US Airways pilots’ request, but it does set forth the rules for deciding that request.

If I recall, the EC resolution wrapped a pretty good protective barrier around the "LIST", and set the legal bar for overtuning the "LIST" out of reach for the east MEC. Please enlighten me on your take.

That is not what they said. You know it. We all know it. Have a good day, cause you're gonna need those kinda days.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

We all know it all right. Do you want me to refresh your memory by posting the applicable parts of the resolution?

Also, have you read the latest fastread where I pulled the above quote?

https://crewroom.alpa.org/DesktopModules/AL...3&Tabid=145

That is not what they said. You know it. We all know it. Have a good day, cause you're gonna need those kinda days.

 

[USA320Pilot]

As of yet, ALPA National has not attempted to impose any solution to the fact that the US Airways pilots cannot, and will not, ever accept the Nicolau Award on this property, period. The East MEC believes the ALPA EC got the line pilot message loud and clear.

The EC knows that without a doubt if they do forward the award the vast majority of US Airways pilots will believe it's time to leave ALPA. Why? Because they would have nothing left to stay in ALPA for and the decertification would proceed. Until then, it's up to the pilots, with that power given to both MEC's, to find a solution to the problem.

Here are the facts according to ALPA EVP Paul Rice, with his direct quotes in quotation marks:

- There is no timetable as to when or if the EC will ever release the list to the Company.

- The EC Resolution states that the merger process was followed, that ALPA remains neutral, and the two MEC’s need to work in the "real world" to find "realistic solutions."

- The intent of the EC Resolution and the Rice Committee is to now move the process of "finding solutions" to this issue forward. And if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations "without them.'

- The JNC talks will go forward, but not in the "traditional sense," and may include many different variations that we have not yet even considered.

The Rice Committee has provided 3 options for a settlement: separate contracts and separate operations, a joint contract and separate operations, or the AWA MEC entering into Section 6 negotiations.

The US Airways pilots and their MEC have agreed with both EC resolutions and they would likely be satisfied with the 3 options provided by the Rice Committee. However, to provide the AWA pilots and the US Airways pilots improved pay and benefits the US Airways MEC passed a resolution called "Equivalent Contract Negotiations." According to Arnie Gentile, ALPA Communications Committee Chairman, “It endorses the concept of equivalent contracts (separate contracts of comparable value for US Airways and America West pilots), but with permanent separate operations that will include preemptive contract language for protection in future mergers. This resolution provides a path to achieve both seniority protections and economic returns.â€

Furthermore, Gentile indicated MEC Chairman Captain Jack Stephan wrote a letter to all East pilots and addressed “equal pay for equal work and acknowledges that LCC’s 2nd quarter results demonstrate once again that US Airways is providing the profits and covering the losses of America West. He states that it is disheartening to learn that the AWA MEC actually approached management and relayed that the America West pilots would be outraged if the East Pilots were granted parity.â€

Here is the bottom line: If the AWA MEC does not agree to the EC Resolutions and the Rice Committee recommendations or without a separate contract with separate operations that are permanent is negotiated for the East, there will not be a joint contract, there will be constant and permanent turmoil between the two pilot groups, ALPA will be decertified on both the East and West property, the East pilot group lawsuit will continue, and the West pilots will not get a pay raise unless they enter Section 6 negotiations.

It appears AWA MEC Chairman John McIlvenna honestly seems to think that the Nicolau Award will blow over, that the majority of the East pilot group would accept the award if they received a pay raise, and the US Airways MEC is misrepresenting the situation. Nothing, I mean nothing could be further from the truth.

I guarantee you that there is no person, none, nada, zip who understands the US Airways pilot's sentiment better than me and the US Airways pilots will do everything and anything to never let the Nicolau Award be implemented.

The only options the US Airways pilots will consider is a separate or joint contract with separate operations that are permanent. Why? This provides both the East and West pilot groups contract improvements and preserves each others career expectations. This would prevent the East pilots from bidding PHX/LAS and the West pilots form bidding bases east of the Mississippi River, which is fair. In addition, if the West pilots want to talk about joint growth or shared scope protections to prevent a “whip saw†then I believe the East pilots would be willingly to explore these protections, however, it must be done in the context of separate operations.

If not, then the turmoil will continue with no integration for about a decade. Thus, the AWA pilots have a choice: abide by the EC’s resolutions and the Rice Committee’s recommendations or fight forever and not obtain contract improvements unless it is done through Section 6 negotiations.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[A320 Driver]

The only options the US Airways pilots will consider is a separate or joint contract with separate operations that are permanent. Why? This provides both the East and West pilot groups contract improvements and preserves each others career expectations. This would prevent the East pilots from bidding PHX/LAS and the West pilots form bidding bases east of the Mississippi River, which is fair.


Regards,

USA320Pilot

Separate operations will fix the effects of the Nic award in the short term, but not the long term. If there is another merger, won't the Nic list be the one that is used as a certified list for US Airways? Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will fix this mess. West is under the impression that if enough money is thrown at it, the problem will go away. That is true for some, but certainly not the majority of the East pilots. I have yet to speak to a fellow pilot that believes that a better contract is any concilation for the damage that has been done.

A320 Driver <_<

 

[USA320Pilot]

A320driver,

You make two good points that I agree with.

I too "have yet to speak to a fellow pilot that believes that a better contract is any concilation for the damage that has been done."

And, yes there needs to be some sort of resolution to the future merger issue, which is why the MEC's recent resolution to have separate contracts of equivalent value with separate operations that are permanent and cover all future mergers for both the East and West pilots must be obtained. If not, then this war between the two pilot groups will continue forever.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[UWCactus]

Until this situation is settled, the East Pilots should not take their frustration out on the company by slowdowns, fuel burn etc,. This was your union, your negotiators and your agreement to enter into BINDING ARBITRATION. The company has no say in how your seniority is integrated so don't hold them responsible for this. The only thing this company is responsible for is making sure all pilots, FA's, employees remained employeed and did not go belly up. How soon some forget.