Commuter policy is broken

[Garfield1966]

1. I was furloughed with a previous company so I know it's hard and I know you probably came back because you enjoyed the job/lifestyle.

2. I'm a new yorker by birth. I know how tough it is to live here. My whole family is here and I would love to live right near them but can't afford it. I still manage and have always managed even back when I qualified for food stamps and public housing in my 1st year of flying.

3. You're right. You didn't have to come back. You did it on your own, so stop whining.

4. Just because you commute doesn't mean you can't get a crash pad and either get commutable trips or commute in the night before and stay at your crash pad. Crash pads don't cost that much money.

5. You can run this company without commuters. All they would have to do is do what they did a few years ago and hire people from NY who would be guaranteed NY.

5. Commuting is a choice. Remember that.

Yea. What she said.

Sky,

If you look at one of my above posts, I mentioned that you can live in the Ant-Arctic for all I care. I just expect people to show up for work when expected. I by no means wish to enforce living requirements on anyone.

By the same token, I have no wish to give someone a free pass to stay at home because they did not make an attempt to get to base (aside from standing by for 2 flights on a OSO day which they had no chance of getting on). If you live in BFE, fine, do what Jim did and get in the day before. Live where ever the hell you want to just get your ass in base.

Fly,

How much do you want to bet if peoples jobs were at stake for missing a flight that people would be getting their ass into base? Like sky said, it's a choice. It's a choice to live were you want. It's a choice to work for AA. And it's a choice to make your trip. Unfortunately, AA in this case is rewarding negative behavior and until an incentive is given to show up instead of an incentive to not show up, nothing will change and your co-workers will get screwed over by your poor behavior.

I work 8 hours and leave. Does not affect me in the least. The reason I #### about it is because I hate seeing inequities in the system. It bothers me to see people who live in NYC penalized by people who choose not to live in NYC and who are allowed to abuse the system.

 

[eolesen]

1. If you think you can run this ariline without commuters, under the current F/A contract, then by all means you have every right to complain. Before you do complain, please let me know how a F/A is supposed to be based in NYC, BOS, SFO, and almost every other base we fly of with our current pay rate? Commuters have no choice which was forced upon us in the concession agreement...BTW... I am very thankful that some of you live at your base city , and have probably been there for many, many years.

Ummm.... how is it the FA's can't do it, yet the agents, rampers, mechanics, and other folks at the airport can manage to do it five years into a concessionary contract?...

 

[Nor'Easta]

Ummm.... how is it the FA's can't do it, yet the agents, rampers, mechanics, and other folks at the airport can manage to do it five years into a concessionary contract?...

Do you even know how our pay works? Do you even understand our contractual language? Do you understand that agents, rampers, mechanics and other folks as you call them, get paid? From your comments, it appears you don't!

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'll preface this by saying that I fortunately never commuted in my 27+ year career so this isn't a "I'm a poor commuter" take on the subject. This line, however, caught my eye:

We XCLed based on the best knowledge we had at the time.

So Garfield uses "the best knowledge we had at the time" alibi when the company does things that turn out to be unnecessary/wrong but expects F/A's to be expert weather forecasters as well as psychics who know before the company which flights will be delayed/canceled so they can factor all of that into their commuting decisions. Sure sounds like "their screwups make my job harder so they should be punished, but how dare anyone expect me not to screw up occasionally" logic to me.....

Jim

 

[Garfield1966]

I'll preface this by saying that I fortunately never commuted in my 27+ year career so this isn't a "I'm a poor commuter" take on the subject. This line, however, caught my eye:



So Garfield uses "the best knowledge we had at the time" alibi when the company does things that turn out to be unnecessary/wrong but expects F/A's to be expert weather forecasters as well as psychics who know before the company which flights will be delayed/canceled so they can factor all of that into their commuting decisions. Sure sounds like "their screwups make my job harder so they should be punished, but how dare anyone expect me not to screw up occasionally" logic to me.....

Jim

How did AA screw up with the cancellations? Weather reports were saying snow. Why was anyone to know that it would not materialize?

If someone lives out of base how does the xcl policy affect commuters who are on flights that are stuck on the ground because of weather and weight restrictions (all excuses I heard today). You come up with a better way to do that makes everyone happy and I am sure you could be rich beyond your wildest dreams. Mean while AA will just plod along making due till you come save the day. I won't hold my breath.

Bottom line is that it is the responsibility of the individual to get to base. When there is WX in the system, the system gets screwed up. I would suggest planning ahead for such an event but what do I know.


Just a FYI, DFW will have a chance of storms on Thurs. Start planning now.

 

[700UW]

If AA has it in the APFA CBA, then learn to deal with it.

 

[operaations]

If AA has it in the APFA CBA, then learn to deal with it.

I agree with Garfiled that the commuter policy is a waste of time and a burden on people who actually live at base. It was created to help those who actually make an effort to do their job. But like most things here at AA there are those who abuse said policy.

I also hate to say it but What 700UW said as long as it is in the APFA CBA we all need to shut up and live with it. As long as AA continues to do nothing about the abuse we have to live with it.

 

[nycaa]

1. If you think you can run this ariline without commuters, under the current F/A contract, then by all means you have every right to complain. Before you do complain, please let me know how a F/A is supposed to be based in NYC, BOS, SFO, and almost every other base we fly of with our current pay rate? Commuters have no choice which was forced upon us in the concession agreement...BTW... I am very thankful that some of you live at your base city , and have probably been there for many, many years.

2. Personally, I have actually moved, as requested by this company, to every base offered to me. That includes; ORD, DFW, MIA , LGA and now STL. I have the moving reciepts to prove it.

3. Yes, I actually moved after my recall to NY. Let me tell you,,,You can't live in NY under this current pay rate. Those who doubt me..Try it yourself.

Guess what...a lot of us actually do live in NY and can afford it (at all pay rates). Forget about living in the city no one can afford that. I've priced apartments in the L.A. area and it is more expensive than NY. I vote "NO" for the RPA in 2003 and I got over it, dealt with it, and moved on. I am sick and tired of hearing F/A's use that as an excuse for this or that. It's not been easy on any on front-line employee...so get over it. In 2003 I had a choice just like everyone else, quit and move on or deal with the pay cuts. I stayed so I have dealt with it. You become way too bitter if you keep dwelling on it. The issue is the fact that those of us who live here don't get that free pass to miss a trip. I have to find my way to the airport no matter what the circumstances are....how is that right....it's not. For those commuters that don't make it in, it's those of us (other F/A's) who live here that suffer. We all have access to weather reports, they need to be just as responsible as every one else...fly in the day before. What a concept.....

 

[L1011Ret]

Guess what...a lot of us actually do live in NY and can afford it (at all pay rates). Forget about living in the city no one can afford that. I've priced apartments in the L.A. area and it is more expensive than NY. I vote "NO" for the RPA in 2003 and I got over it, dealt with it, and moved on. I am sick and tired of hearing F/A's use that as an excuse for this or that. It's not been easy on any on front-line employee...so get over it. In 2003 I had a choice just like everyone else, quit and move on or deal with the pay cuts. I stayed so I have dealt with it. You become way too bitter if you keep dwelling on it. The issue is the fact that those of us who live here don't get that free pass to miss a trip. I have to find my way to the airport no matter what the circumstances are....how is that right....it's not. For those commuters that don't make it in, it's those of us (other F/A's) who live here that suffer. We all have access to weather reports, they need to be just as responsible as every one else...fly in the day before. What a concept.....

My AA F/A s spouse and I live 45 minues from LGA. It is expensive, the property taxes are outrageous. But it is good to be near the airport. She was forced to commute to STL for a long time because of the discriminatory policies of APFA. How can a union can discriminate in age by having its older members forced to commute while others do not have to?

 

[galleyguy4u2]

At TWA about 70% of us were commuters and we did not have a commuter policy. If you did not get there you would get a first warning after three you were in job jeopardy. I use to bid for same day commute flights, late departures and early arrivals back to base. Believe me I was always watching the WX channel. If I saw a storm coming through the Midwest I would get my butt up there the day before as most of us did.

I grew tired of doing the same day commute, arriving tired and having to fly 10-12 hours. From that point on I decided to come in the night before and stay at the STL Airport Hilton for $35.00. I know you can't get those rates in NYC. Our NY based f/a's who commuted had reasonable clean commuter pads.

At TWA we never had to sign in on a computer. We just reported to the gate one hour before departure and signed in on a briefing form. If somebody was not there who was working the flight we were supposed to call CS. If we knew the person was a commuter from PHX, we would check the flight for their name and if that f/a was just landing we would not call. At least most of us did not. If that person was not on the PHX-STL flight we would have no choice but to call CS.

Commuting is a choice and we knew it. Most of us were responsible commuters. I will never forget showing up for a flight where we were to have four of us working on the S-80 and four f/a's were already there. The crew list showed four working and now there was five. Well, this f/a from SFO arrived the day before and had her days mixed up. She was to work the same sequence tomorrow. Fortunately she was able to trade into a later trip that same day so her early commute was not wasted at a hotel.

I am sure Mark K. may want to add to this thread.

P.S. I have never no-showed my working trips.

 

[nbmcg01]

You are obviously new here because most here know I'll throw AA under the bus just as easily as I'll throw you under it. I have no loyalties.

Why don't you look at open time for tomorrow and look at the flights that went out short staffed today before you lip off and sound like a union puke who does not wish to hold people responsible for anything.

This has nothing to do with a day off. That would be called MU/II. This does have to do with line holders on a seq and not showing up to base to do ones job. No one is making any one take the job. If you want to live in the ant-arctic then go right ahead. Just get to base for your seq. Try looking at the WX channel and if you see WX coming, get your butt to base. What is so hard to figure out. Of course if there is no incentive to get to base to do your job (like loosing your job) then why bother showing up. Standby for 2 flights you know you wont get on and your are scott free while NYCAA lives in NYC and actually has to get to base because he is responsible and lives where he works.

Every commuter I spoke with today was commuting on AA.

As a former "union puke", whom my current Executive Director has titled me the FUB-former union b****, you will be surprised to read that I agree with you. I not only moved where I work but lived in the City nearest the airport with good schools and activities for my children. There were many times cs called to inverse me because I lived 15 minutes from the airport. TWA was pretty forgiving during major snow storms (or ice) if you tried to get to work but couldn't make it. More forgiving than to the commuters because of the reasons you stated. I realize that not EVERYONE can live where they work (welcome to most professions today) but commending responsible employees like Jim, goes a long way. By the way, that "little snow" put 11 inches in my driveway and I live in Bridgeton, right next to the airport. We had snow "thunder" which produced huge bursts of snow with 0 visibility. I70 (next to the airport) was shut down a good portion of the afternoon. On rare occasions, it really is out of your control whether you live, away, near, ar in the crew lounge.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Bottom line is that it is the responsibility of the individual to get to base.

And AA agreed that fulfilling that responsibility entails having two flights to get to base on - apparently - only know what I read here. Like I said, AA apparently doesn't have perfect knowledge of future events - sounds like they cancel flights when it ultimately proves unnecessary (like happens at any airline at times).

Why do you expect the F/A's to have better knowledge of the future than the company? Why should they be required to know in advance which flights will cancel or be oversold because of other cancellations. As you said, AA can only make decisions "based on the best knowledge we had at the time". If the company should be given some slack for "doing the best it can given what it knows", should not that logic also apply to the employees? Or is the double standard alive and well in your world?

Jim

 

[Garfield1966]

As a former "union puke", whom my current Executive Director has titled me the FUB-former union b****, you will be surprised to read that I agree with you. I not only moved where I work but lived in the City nearest the airport with good schools and activities for my children. There were many times cs called to inverse me because I lived 15 minutes from the airport. TWA was pretty forgiving during major snow storms (or ice) if you tried to get to work but couldn't make it. More forgiving than to the commuters because of the reasons you stated. I realize that not EVERYONE can live where they work (welcome to most professions today) but commending responsible employees like Jim, goes a long way. By the way, that "little snow" put 11 inches in my driveway and I live in Bridgeton, right next to the airport. We had snow "thunder" which produced huge bursts of snow with 0 visibility. I70 (next to the airport) was shut down a good portion of the afternoon. On rare occasions, it really is out of your control whether you live, away, near, ar in the crew lounge.

The union puke comment was directed at Winglet for his "management shill" comment. I do not consider you a 'union puke'. While we may disagree on various issues, I believe that you sincerely believe in your position and I respect that. The way I read Wings comment is that he is a parroting the "union line' with out thinking or looking at the facts hence the "puke" reference.

Actually I am not surprised you agree with me. You strike me as a person who believes in individual responsibility and this goes along with that concept.

The more I see things like this being implemented the more I agree with what ops said a few threads ago. We need to get the negotiators out of the negotiating room. Perhaps they can work on the pay and crap like that but the work rules should be done by us. And by us I mean FA's who work the line and crew skd who work the floor. We know what works and we know what does not. That is the only way you will get a contract that is worth anything. As long as you let the union 'pukes' (folks who do not have your best interest at heart) and management "pukes" (folks who have nones best interest at heart) do the negotiation, you (the folks who actually work the line) will always get the short end of the stick.

Boeing,

I am fully aware that I have no choice to live with this and other bone head ideas but do you even have the balls to admit that there is a problem or not?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Boeing,

I am fully aware that I have no choice to live with this and other bone head ideas but do you even have the balls to admit that there is a problem or not?

I clearly see that it can be a problem for the schedulers - no question there. What I disagree with is the double standard - the company (you) get off the hook because of imperfect knowledge about the future but the commuter should be punished for lacking that perfect knowledge.

Example - a commuter has a trip tomorrow and either of the first two flights will get them to base for their trip. They see that both flights are operating so plan to catch the first morning flight, leaving the second as a backup. Getting to the airport the next morning, they find that the first flight is canceled, resulting in the 2nd being oversold - so they're unable to get to base in time.

In this situation, you say it's unfair to blame the company for not canceling the first flight earlier - after all, the decision was made on "the best knowledge we had at the time." Yet you blame the F/A for not knowing that the first flight would cancel resulting in the second flight being oversold.

All I'm saying is that what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander......either both the company and commuter are at fault for not knowing earlier that the flight would cancel or neither is at fault. Punish both or punish neither. Seems like a simple concept, unless one subscribes to the concept that only they are allowed to make an error and that others should be perfect.....

Jim

 

[operaations]

I clearly see that it can be a problem for the schedulers - no question there. What I disagree with is the double standard - the company (you) get off the hook because of imperfect knowledge about the future but the commuter should be punished for lacking that perfect knowledge.

Example - a commuter has a trip tomorrow and either of the first two flights will get them to base for their trip. They see that both flights are operating so plan to catch the first morning flight, leaving the second as a backup. Getting to the airport the next morning, they find that the first flight is canceled, resulting in the 2nd being oversold - so they're unable to get to base in time.

In this situation, you say it's unfair to blame the company for not canceling the first flight earlier - after all, the decision was made on "the best knowledge we had at the time." Yet you blame the F/A for not knowing that the first flight would cancel resulting in the second flight being oversold.

All I'm saying is that what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander......either both the company and commuter are at fault for not knowing earlier that the flight would cancel or neither is at fault. Punish both or punish neither. Seems like a simple concept, unless one subscribes to the concept that only they are allowed to make an error and that others should be perfect.....

Jim

Jim,

Garfield’s point is, plan ahead. Not just two flights ahead but be realistic about it. If the news said that there is a huge snow storm converging on ORD or NYC or STL for tomorrow. Wouldn’t it be wise to attempt to get into base today? Under the current rules the company and the apfa have agreed to punish the people that live at base at the benefit of the ones who do not.
I agree with you that the company can only cancel flights when they absolutely know that they can not fly. It is not an exact science. That is why the Flight Attendant needs to plan ahead. Not just rely on his or her normal sunny day commute in the morning of. A responsible commuter watches the weather channel looks at the weather on the internet and bases his or her decisions on that.
The company is punished for canceling flights. (They are held by the ticketing agreement to protect the passenger on the next available flight or reprotect them on another carrier. That costs them plenty of revenue. Not only do they lose the passenger revenue they lose the cargo revenue when they cancel flights. What punishment does the commuter get for not making it in? Nothing absolutely nothing. The punishment falls into the laps of the locally based flight attendants that get reassigned because their co-worker did not make it in.
I do not blame just the Flight Attendant I blame both. The company was stupid for agreeing to this policy and the company is at fault for no doing anything about it.
I feel sorry for the Flight Attendants that are not commuters. They get the shaft