Come celebrate the first anniversary of AA's TWA purchase.
- Thread starter AAquila
- Start date
Fred,
I know nothing about the post on smilinjack that you are talking about, but I assure you, I am along way away from being a 96 hire. I have my opinions on how this merger should have been handled and how it will be handled by the courts, as far as the employees are concerned, just as you have yours. They are really just opinions, as now that it is in the courts hands, whatever decision they come up with, everyone, exTWA and AA employees, will have to abide by. Had APA and the f/a union, especially the f/a union had done things a little different, say like gave 1 for 5 or something in that order, the courts would have never been involued, and not ONE AA employee would have been affected by it. Now, there is that possibly of DOH for all exTWA employees. Again, that is just my opinion...I am just thankful that I do not have to deal with it, but I do have a great number of friends and former co-workers that have to. I would like to see something a little better for them. After 9-11, the exTWA employees have taken the brundt of the layoffs, and that you cannot deny.
Thanks, and have a good night. I know I am going to....
Carl
![1.gif']](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F1.gif%27%5D&hash=780a81acab56bb4a2bb51d3d5e078f5f)
I know nothing about the post on smilinjack that you are talking about, but I assure you, I am along way away from being a 96 hire. I have my opinions on how this merger should have been handled and how it will be handled by the courts, as far as the employees are concerned, just as you have yours. They are really just opinions, as now that it is in the courts hands, whatever decision they come up with, everyone, exTWA and AA employees, will have to abide by. Had APA and the f/a union, especially the f/a union had done things a little different, say like gave 1 for 5 or something in that order, the courts would have never been involued, and not ONE AA employee would have been affected by it. Now, there is that possibly of DOH for all exTWA employees. Again, that is just my opinion...I am just thankful that I do not have to deal with it, but I do have a great number of friends and former co-workers that have to. I would like to see something a little better for them. After 9-11, the exTWA employees have taken the brundt of the layoffs, and that you cannot deny.
Thanks, and have a good night. I know I am going to....
Carl
I agree with what you have said except for the retirement being funded by AA. My penison with Ozark was taken care of during the merger with TWA and my TWA retirement is now with the PGBC, which AA has nothing to do with.
carl
carl
FA Mikey
It was a merger that Compton stated in front of Congress that Carty requested that bankruptcy be filed as part of the deal. I really feel sorry for some of you AA people when the courts get done. I just hope you will be able to handle it.
It was a merger that Compton stated in front of Congress that Carty requested that bankruptcy be filed as part of the deal. I really feel sorry for some of you AA people when the courts get done. I just hope you will be able to handle it.
Well Carl, [BR][BR]We could go round and round on the integration all night, but it wouldn't change a dog gone thing. As far as the furloughs are concerned that is an entirely different manner. Any difficulty the junior TWA pilots experience, while sad, is still to be balanced by the relief the junior TWA pilots had by being acquired by AMR. If they hadn't been acquired they would probably not have had a job this long. Since they have been acquired, they are no worse off in the airline depression, indeed, they are better off because they have a number at a major airline that will come out of this: without having to be hired and put through probation too. Since you're retired, it's not your problem. But you do have the good fortune to have your retirement funded whereas it would not have been had AMR not acquired your company. Otherwise you could envision living off FDR's social security.
MrMarky
Advanced
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/5/2002 8:53:26 PM Tharseo wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]Marky should try to savor the food on American Airlines flights more and dabble in union politics less. Not only does he not have a bone in the fight, Marky has no real information but just carries his bias for TWA like keeping his feelings on his sleeve. So while he may be shocked to read the allegations, the serious of the charge has nothing to do with the facts at hand.[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]Tharseo, Phantom, Petra, Somewhere Over America, Super 80, etc, etc, ---I get tired of trying to keep up with all of your aliases,[/P]
[P]In case you missed it, I never uttered a word in support or opposition to the TWA pilots' lawsuit. I simply referenced it, and if you will bother to look you will see I said they allege. I never stated their allegations as fact or implied I had any agreement with them. I then went on to say that [STRONG]IF[/STRONG] these allegations were even half true, it is shocking. As far as not having a bone in the fight, NEITHER DO YOU!!! Thank you very much, this suit by the TWA pilots is against their former union, ALPA, not against AA or APA. So what does it have to do with you? Are you an ALPA member? Or, are you concerned that you were among the responsible parties at APA (should the allegations have merit of course) who were part of the conspiracy to deny the TWA pilots the fair, vigorous and unbiased representation they were entitled to and had paid for, from ALPA???[/P]
[P]I know you pass up few opportunities to cast stones at me and anyone else somehow connected to TWA. But as is usually the case, you are totally off base, misguided, take things out of context, twist the facts to suit your perverted arguments, and generally go out of your way to be obnoxious and offensive, Mr. Fred Underwood. What a joke. We all know who you really are. I am not petty enough to bother to out you in the particularily viscous way in which you have outed so many TWA pilots while you have twisted their words and tried to get them in trouble with the company or the union, but suffice to say, if it were not for the TWA pilots, you would not be an MD-80 (excuse me, Super 80) Captain today. You would more likely have been demoted to First Officer (or soon would be) if not furloughed outright, as AA struggles to survive by reducing its employee roster. [/P]
[P]As far as your sarcastic comments about my sticking to savoring the food on American Airlines, you seem to forget that you work in a service industry. Without customers like me to ferry around from point A to point B, you're out of a job! I know you have an extremely overinflated sense of self-importance, a fact that has not gone unnoticed by your APA union (forgive my medling in union politics), and think of yourself as the self-appointed final arbitrator of all issues regarding pilots and heaven knows what else, but your real profession is engaging in character assassination. In short, you fly airplanes and are of little consequence, otherwise. [/P]
[P]Sincerely yours,[/P]
[P]Marky
![P]](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F14.gif%27%5D+%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F14.gif%27%5D+%5B%2FP%5D&hash=61e4b5a517b58757e390b1478781604f)
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/5/2002 8:53:26 PM Tharseo wrote:
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE]Marky should try to savor the food on American Airlines flights more and dabble in union politics less. Not only does he not have a bone in the fight, Marky has no real information but just carries his bias for TWA like keeping his feelings on his sleeve. So while he may be shocked to read the allegations, the serious of the charge has nothing to do with the facts at hand.[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]Tharseo, Phantom, Petra, Somewhere Over America, Super 80, etc, etc, ---I get tired of trying to keep up with all of your aliases,[/P]
[P]In case you missed it, I never uttered a word in support or opposition to the TWA pilots' lawsuit. I simply referenced it, and if you will bother to look you will see I said they allege. I never stated their allegations as fact or implied I had any agreement with them. I then went on to say that [STRONG]IF[/STRONG] these allegations were even half true, it is shocking. As far as not having a bone in the fight, NEITHER DO YOU!!! Thank you very much, this suit by the TWA pilots is against their former union, ALPA, not against AA or APA. So what does it have to do with you? Are you an ALPA member? Or, are you concerned that you were among the responsible parties at APA (should the allegations have merit of course) who were part of the conspiracy to deny the TWA pilots the fair, vigorous and unbiased representation they were entitled to and had paid for, from ALPA???[/P]
[P]I know you pass up few opportunities to cast stones at me and anyone else somehow connected to TWA. But as is usually the case, you are totally off base, misguided, take things out of context, twist the facts to suit your perverted arguments, and generally go out of your way to be obnoxious and offensive, Mr. Fred Underwood. What a joke. We all know who you really are. I am not petty enough to bother to out you in the particularily viscous way in which you have outed so many TWA pilots while you have twisted their words and tried to get them in trouble with the company or the union, but suffice to say, if it were not for the TWA pilots, you would not be an MD-80 (excuse me, Super 80) Captain today. You would more likely have been demoted to First Officer (or soon would be) if not furloughed outright, as AA struggles to survive by reducing its employee roster. [/P]
[P]As far as your sarcastic comments about my sticking to savoring the food on American Airlines, you seem to forget that you work in a service industry. Without customers like me to ferry around from point A to point B, you're out of a job! I know you have an extremely overinflated sense of self-importance, a fact that has not gone unnoticed by your APA union (forgive my medling in union politics), and think of yourself as the self-appointed final arbitrator of all issues regarding pilots and heaven knows what else, but your real profession is engaging in character assassination. In short, you fly airplanes and are of little consequence, otherwise. [/P]
[P]Sincerely yours,[/P]
[P]Marky
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/6/2002 4:28:59 AM MrMarky wrote: [BR][BR]I then went on to say that IF these allegations were even half true, it is shocking. As far as not having a bone in the fight, NEITHER DO YOU!!! [/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR][STRONG]IF[/STRONG] is not even reasonable. There is not a shred of evidence except circumstantial coincidence to support it. The laughable part of this whole observation is how pathetic the motions of the morons that were the TWA MEC continue to be. They are making up whole accusations out of their imaginations. So since my union, the APA, is their next intended target by so many that you champion that fall into the previous category mentioned, it is humorous and good intelligence to note that their very first action is so ill-planned. Since I have a very secure interest in the actions they will bring, it is comforting that they are so lacking in intelligence to even start their legal action as an indication of how far they will miss their mark, Marky.
A
ART
Guest
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/5/2002 10:28:34 AM Boomer wrote:
Art,
Where was the information about the F/A Union being decertified? Is there currently a card drive among the LLC/AA Flight Attendants for another Union?
Usefull information can be found at this site:
NMB Representation Manual
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/repman06...0601.html#6.601
6.601* Percentage of Authorizations Required
If the craft or class involved in the investigation is represented for Railway Labor Act purposes and is covered by a valid existing contract between any such representative and the Carrier, the application must be supported by a majority (more than 50%) of valid authorizations from individuals in the craft or class. In all other circumstances, an application must be supported by at least thirty-five (35) percent of valid authorizations from individuals in the craft or class. The percentage of authorizations required in a merger is governed by Section 19, Merger Procedures.
Section 19 would not appear to be applicable due to the NMB decision regarding the representation of the former LLC F/A's:
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter200...002/29n049.html
Going the decertification route would be more problematic due to the numbers required. From the NMB representation determination,"American employs 22,860 employees covered by this application. TWA-LLC employs 4,055 Flight Attendants."
----------------
[/blockquote]
=============
Am Boomer - What you will find happening is that at the end of the Federal hearings, APFA will be forced to close its doors and thus be de-certified. This will be on at least two counts and perhaps three. You will see the complete allegations soon. The majority of the APFA membership will also see the misdeeds in a VERY clear light.
The APFA will not be able to pay the award; there will never be enough money. In addition, those allegations which have been made and will soon be made against John Ward and the other officers of the APFA, will be found to be valid and held in appeal as well.
In addition to losing the war and battle, the officers will lose personally. They will be found to have subverted the very laws of your association. No actions taken since those dates can protect them from the law. No protection invoked retroactively and no insurance policy can guard them.
The LLC employees will not have to lift a finger or hand. It wasn’t the IAM that refused to bargain with the APFA.
Also, one would hope that certain AA officers and staff were not involved in this mess. It was Don Carty who said he would fairly integrate the workforce and insure the majority of jobs? Did America, the United States Senate and you misunderstand what he said in public, under oath and God forbid on television? I don’t think so.
Something is dreadfully wrong in YOUR camp(s).
By the way, intimidation, coercion and duress, the courts really understand those words and what they mean. The court is never happy with those who are the perpetrators.
That makes the award TREBLED. Count them 1 - 2 - 3 times the findings.
Encourage the APFA and American Airlines to at least do a 1 for 3.5. It mights save a lot of trouble. Also the rest of everybody else has to return as well. Whether laid off, furloughed or on leave. Get the deal while you can.
----------------
On 10/5/2002 10:28:34 AM Boomer wrote:
Art,
Where was the information about the F/A Union being decertified? Is there currently a card drive among the LLC/AA Flight Attendants for another Union?
Usefull information can be found at this site:
NMB Representation Manual
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/repman06...0601.html#6.601
6.601* Percentage of Authorizations Required
If the craft or class involved in the investigation is represented for Railway Labor Act purposes and is covered by a valid existing contract between any such representative and the Carrier, the application must be supported by a majority (more than 50%) of valid authorizations from individuals in the craft or class. In all other circumstances, an application must be supported by at least thirty-five (35) percent of valid authorizations from individuals in the craft or class. The percentage of authorizations required in a merger is governed by Section 19, Merger Procedures.
Section 19 would not appear to be applicable due to the NMB decision regarding the representation of the former LLC F/A's:
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter200...002/29n049.html
Going the decertification route would be more problematic due to the numbers required. From the NMB representation determination,"American employs 22,860 employees covered by this application. TWA-LLC employs 4,055 Flight Attendants."
----------------
[/blockquote]
=============
Am Boomer - What you will find happening is that at the end of the Federal hearings, APFA will be forced to close its doors and thus be de-certified. This will be on at least two counts and perhaps three. You will see the complete allegations soon. The majority of the APFA membership will also see the misdeeds in a VERY clear light.
The APFA will not be able to pay the award; there will never be enough money. In addition, those allegations which have been made and will soon be made against John Ward and the other officers of the APFA, will be found to be valid and held in appeal as well.
In addition to losing the war and battle, the officers will lose personally. They will be found to have subverted the very laws of your association. No actions taken since those dates can protect them from the law. No protection invoked retroactively and no insurance policy can guard them.
The LLC employees will not have to lift a finger or hand. It wasn’t the IAM that refused to bargain with the APFA.
Also, one would hope that certain AA officers and staff were not involved in this mess. It was Don Carty who said he would fairly integrate the workforce and insure the majority of jobs? Did America, the United States Senate and you misunderstand what he said in public, under oath and God forbid on television? I don’t think so.
Something is dreadfully wrong in YOUR camp(s).
By the way, intimidation, coercion and duress, the courts really understand those words and what they mean. The court is never happy with those who are the perpetrators.
That makes the award TREBLED. Count them 1 - 2 - 3 times the findings.
Encourage the APFA and American Airlines to at least do a 1 for 3.5. It mights save a lot of trouble. Also the rest of everybody else has to return as well. Whether laid off, furloughed or on leave. Get the deal while you can.
Art the courts detest frivilous and baseless lawsuits. Example a bunch of people from a bankrupt company who were offered jobs and a better deal in seniority than ever offered to even there own employees. Those Who seek to use the court to get money and job security to the detriment of the people who worked for the company who bought the bankrupt assests. That should be looked down on as shameless.
Don Carty did offer jobs. You did get seniority. Then the war on terrorism. There were layoffs. I will check but I am sure No one at AA said the future TW employees would have layoff protection.
Intimidation, coercion and duress, the courts really understand those words and what they mean. Will they understand same job same pay? Will the court understand bankrupt assest purchase? Will the court understand signing away rights from a contract, with out so much as a protest at the time? Will the courts understand fighting the single carrier issue, trying to stay separate for so long? Then wanting to be made senior. Will the courts understand that a union negotiates only with and for its current dues paying members?
Don Carty did offer jobs. You did get seniority. Then the war on terrorism. There were layoffs. I will check but I am sure No one at AA said the future TW employees would have layoff protection.
Intimidation, coercion and duress, the courts really understand those words and what they mean. Will they understand same job same pay? Will the court understand bankrupt assest purchase? Will the court understand signing away rights from a contract, with out so much as a protest at the time? Will the courts understand fighting the single carrier issue, trying to stay separate for so long? Then wanting to be made senior. Will the courts understand that a union negotiates only with and for its current dues paying members?
BillLumbergh
Veteran
[P]Off topic:[/P]
[P]Is Fred Underwood your real name???[/P]
[P]Is Fred Underwood your real name???[/P]
Art,
Sorry, but I'm a wrench not an f/a. As for why I care, whether we like it or not: we all fall in behind the same logo. The continued vetching around the TWA integration only goes to confirm what Crandall said years ago following the Air Cal deal, better to grow from within.
Where are the hearings being held? With PACER authorization, anyone can look up the filings and most of the statements/allegations. There must be some pretty good ammo for it to rise to the level you indicate. With the Reno decision behind them, the APFA would really have to have gone overboard for you to be correct. But...it could happen ;-0
Sorry, but I'm a wrench not an f/a. As for why I care, whether we like it or not: we all fall in behind the same logo. The continued vetching around the TWA integration only goes to confirm what Crandall said years ago following the Air Cal deal, better to grow from within.
Where are the hearings being held? With PACER authorization, anyone can look up the filings and most of the statements/allegations. There must be some pretty good ammo for it to rise to the level you indicate. With the Reno decision behind them, the APFA would really have to have gone overboard for you to be correct. But...it could happen ;-0
[BR][BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/7/2002 2:28:00 PM BillLumbergh wrote:[BR][BR][BR]Off topic:[BR][BR]Is Fred Underwood your real name???----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR][BR][BR]Nope. [BR][BR]I think Mr. Marky (definitely [STRONG]not [/STRONG]to be confused with the person in question) got most of his aliases. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more, though.[BR][BR]BTW, great posting, Marky. Right on target. [BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/7/2002 2:28:00 PM BillLumbergh wrote:[BR][BR][BR]Off topic:[BR][BR]Is Fred Underwood your real name???----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR][BR][BR]Nope. [BR][BR]I think Mr. Marky (definitely [STRONG]not [/STRONG]to be confused with the person in question) got most of his aliases. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more, though.[BR][BR]BTW, great posting, Marky. Right on target. [BR][BR]
Thanks for coming y'all. It was a great get- together. About four hundred mostly x-LLCers were there crammed into the lounge by the main entrance of the Ramada at JFK. There were AAers there too, even Bags showed up. He took to the lecturn and confessed that in the past he was just a habitual whiner, that has all changed now, since I've made so many new LLC friends, I'm a real man now . ( that was last night after a few, let's see what he says the morning after ). Bags then capped the evening by exchanging his AA tee-shirt for a TWA tank-top from his newly found friend, Bruce.
Bags, where did you go?, you missed the Conga line.
Moving on, the party was a great start, and will get better in the years to come.
Again, thanks for coming and thanks AA for having us.
Bags, where did you go?, you missed the Conga line.
Moving on, the party was a great start, and will get better in the years to come.
Again, thanks for coming and thanks AA for having us.
B
bagsmasher
Guest
Bags then capped the evening by exchanging his AA tee-shirt for a TWA tank-top from his newly found friend, Bruce.
Bags, where did you go?, you missed the Conga line.
I didn't miss anything. My new friend Bruce and I snuck off and had a little Conga line of our own, if you know what I mean.
Bags, where did you go?, you missed the Conga line.
I didn't miss anything. My new friend Bruce and I snuck off and had a little Conga line of our own, if you know what I mean.
A
ART
Guest
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/7/2002 4:01:31 PM Boomer wrote:
Art,
Sorry, but I'm a wrench not an f/a. As for why I care, whether we like it or not: we all fall in behind the same logo. The continued vetching around the TWA integration only goes to confirm what Crandall said years ago following the Air Cal deal, better to grow from within.
Where are the hearings being held? With PACER authorization, anyone can look up the filings and most of the statements/allegations. There must be some pretty good ammo for it to rise to the level you indicate. With the Reno decision behind them, the APFA would really have to have gone overboard for you to be correct. But...it could happen ;-0
----------------
[/blockquote]
=================
Boomer @ $0.07 per page viewed Pacer is a bargain. Better to grow from within, unless you staged a coup with a teetering entity. Thats what was done for economic gain. The Cran and the Cart would've done the same thing @ the same time.
.
So AA and APFA went pretty overboard, thats why you are seeing the retraction and shuffling on rosters, furloughs, leaves and soon to be light goes on a slotting in of 3.5 to 1 AA to TW. The next Fed suit in STL is trying to not happen, only because the company is capitulating, but not admitting guilt. After all, not a real AA'er is going to lose.
.
Victims to be the fall guy John Ward; the Cart remains intact; APFA may go away or fall under the purview of the IAM or ????????? or AFA. Tough one to call, especially when the masses of AA F/A find out what happened.
.
Nice shot, too bad @ the right side of the centerline, instead of the goal.
.
No contest, the people of AA win, the people of LLC win. The company is happy. John Ward and cohorts are not.
----------------
On 10/7/2002 4:01:31 PM Boomer wrote:
Art,
Sorry, but I'm a wrench not an f/a. As for why I care, whether we like it or not: we all fall in behind the same logo. The continued vetching around the TWA integration only goes to confirm what Crandall said years ago following the Air Cal deal, better to grow from within.
Where are the hearings being held? With PACER authorization, anyone can look up the filings and most of the statements/allegations. There must be some pretty good ammo for it to rise to the level you indicate. With the Reno decision behind them, the APFA would really have to have gone overboard for you to be correct. But...it could happen ;-0
----------------
[/blockquote]
=================
Boomer @ $0.07 per page viewed Pacer is a bargain. Better to grow from within, unless you staged a coup with a teetering entity. Thats what was done for economic gain. The Cran and the Cart would've done the same thing @ the same time.
.
So AA and APFA went pretty overboard, thats why you are seeing the retraction and shuffling on rosters, furloughs, leaves and soon to be light goes on a slotting in of 3.5 to 1 AA to TW. The next Fed suit in STL is trying to not happen, only because the company is capitulating, but not admitting guilt. After all, not a real AA'er is going to lose.
.
Victims to be the fall guy John Ward; the Cart remains intact; APFA may go away or fall under the purview of the IAM or ????????? or AFA. Tough one to call, especially when the masses of AA F/A find out what happened.
.
Nice shot, too bad @ the right side of the centerline, instead of the goal.
.
No contest, the people of AA win, the people of LLC win. The company is happy. John Ward and cohorts are not.
