Come celebrate the first anniversary of AA's TWA purchase.

[FA Mikey]

TWAFA007 says: The FACT is the TWA employees DO have a contract with AMR, TWA LLC, & the Unions that protected their seniority. That is the contract they are suing about. The contract replaced the guarantee to their seniority that were given up in their Union contracts. This contract is actually stronger than the old TWA Union contracts and supersedes them. Its the contract that was signed by all parties to, get the purchase done. This contract was approved by the courts and the courts will see that it is enforced. The contract that guaranteed all of TWA seniority rights, including bidding seniority, not just company or pay. Even Mr Carty testified in court before a Judge and said TWA employees seniority rights would be protected. That contract is called the Purchase Agreement. You know, but dont acknowledge, the fact that it clearly states & guarantees TWA Union employees, fair & equitable seniority INTEGRATION. It also guaranteed an appointment of a facilitator and meetings between TWA & AA Unions and that AA would except the results of these meetings. We all know none of this happened. This is why the TWA employees are in court. They want the courts to uphold the contract.

Mike says: Here we go again. I see one person who is so set on making sure he supersedes AA people on seniority, he will never let this issue die. The purchase agreement never said you would get seniority over the current AA people. You and your union knew when they agreed to be bought in the fire sale. That AA and its unions would decide the issue of occupational seniority. Had the IAM done its job properly and kept the language of seniority, this would be no issue. Instead they agreed to let AA and its unions decide how and where the NEW employees just starting here would be placed in the seniority list. You need look only to the merger of RENO to see where APFA and APA were going to go with it. Fair and Equitable, well boo hoo you think you didnt get that. I think you got better than fair and equitable. It wasnt for you to decide what is fair and equitable. Facilitator, The agreement said AA would provide for a facilitator. Not force and party in to using one. The TW employees are in court, to sue to bankrupt this union. They are suing the company who offered them jobs.

TWAFA007 altered reality says: Please, dont give me the Mike argument, we got 100% of Company & 100% pay seniority, both of which are not true, but 0% of bidding. What more do we want. All we want is in the contract,fair & equitable integration of all seniorities. The contract clearly doesnt allow AA to pick & chose which seniority, to be fair & equitable. Everyone agrees, outside of AA, that the most important seniority is bidding. Your whining about bidding seniority all the time clearly shows that it is the most important to you. Why do you think it isnt important to TWA employees?

Mike says: You dont want to hear that because its true. What more do you want. We know, EVERYTHING, you want to be senior here. You want to bid and be above the employees who made AA there career. You want to be senior and above all those who made the tuff choice to leave TW years ago, and start over. You want to be senior and above, all those who had to go though losing there jobs because there carrier wasnt bought up. I have yet to speak to any employee, whos airline went out. Who wouldnt have LOVED the idea of a JOB as well as a retirement, vaction, and pay rates equal to their years at another airline. With a company they were just starting at. Bagsmasher and my issues about occupational seniority are just this. We earned it. We worked here. You are just starting, and do not deserve to be brought in senior to him or myself, or any of the people already here, Whos lives and careers were based on AA their time here and its sucsess.

TWAFA007s altered reality says:The APFA took a huge gamble by not honoring the purchase agreement, by not meeting the IAM, and not giving, fair & equitable' bidding seniority. Stapling is not, integration. If they had honored the contract and had just meet with the IAM with a facilitator I am sure a compromise could have been worked out. Now that the APFA decided to make their own agreement with AA without IAM participation they are both in breach of contract. I feel that the majority of TWA F/As would have accepted an integration well short of DOH, but now it will be left up to the courts to decide and I feel they will consider full DOH. Just IMHO.

MIke says: APFA does not gamble. APFAs job was to negotiate with AA as to how seniority would be handled. Like Reno before it. We did just that. I am sure you believe a compromise could have been worked out. TW and IAM having all the cards in their hands. Sure, Lets see a compromise with you since you signed away the seniority clauses in your contract. Since you were bankrupt. Since you needed 2 DIP loans just to keep flying through BK court. I just dont see TW or IAM in the driver seat or holding any cards. Since the federal courts have ruled multiple times on the issus of seniority. Let me tell you none have gained anything.

TWAFA007 says:The hearings begin this month in Brooklyn. Lets see how a staple job plays out there. Its always bad when the courts have to decide what should have been a Union matter. APFA forced the issue. TWA employees are just trying to protect their rights.

Mike says: It is a union matter. Problem is the other side can live with the outcome. The TW employees are not trying to protect there rights. They are trying to screw the hand that saved there jobs. You signed off on your seniority. Not me, not AA, Not anyone other than the TW employees and there union.

TWAFA says: If you and Mike feel what we got is fair, then you should have nothing to worry or whine about. So lets stop the arguements here. Its in the hands of the courts, not ours. We just get to sit back and watch the wheels of Justice turn

Mike says: I dont worry. In fact you are the only person who continues to whine over this issue.

TWAFA007 says: Back to the Party in NY. 007 will be there. I will be celebrating the first steps toward our promised fair & equitable seniority integration. Whining will get you no where, but the courts will. See you at the party & the courts.

Mike says: Glad as we strive to save jobs money and our carrers. We have you and the rest of the former TW staff totry to bleed our company and unions dry. I guess thats what you all have to celebrate. The opportunity to get AA and its employees for being sucsessful in business.

 

[TWAFA007]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/25/2002 10:48:56 PM AAquila wrote:

October 7th 2002, start-time 2000 hrs at the JFK Ramada Hotel, former LLCers wear your TWA best, AAers most welcome. For more info please call:

Adriana (636) 477-9995


----------------
[/blockquote]
Aloha AAquila,

I hear there is going to be a good turn out. Can you give us an update? Thank you for your efforts.

ALOHA, 007

 

[AAquila]

I really suggest you call the telephone number listed. The person listed mentions a need for volunteers so there's your big chance to make it a memorable time for everyone. Even the naysayers are welcomed to stop in.

It's a pay-as-you-go, so if you don't go you don't pay.
.................................................

It may be lacking all the trappings of a formal dinner/dance,

just a bunch of ol'chums ( 800 or more ) sharing a brew.

Remember, wear your OLDIES but GOODIES,

and your high-heeled sneakers too.

SeeYA, there.

 

[TWAFA007]

Aloha Mike,

Mike says: Glad as we strive to save jobs money and our carrers. We have you and the rest of the former TW staff to try to bleed our company and unions dry. I guess thats what you all have to celebrate. The opportunity to get AA and its employees for being sucsessful in business.

Bleed our company & unions dry. A bit over dramatic dont you think. How is the suit going to do that? Unless, you think the TWAers are right and are going to win. Is that your problem? The TWA were an instant over $1 million a year windfall for the APFA. That should more than cover court costs.

Why dont you come to party and meet your coworkers. We really are nice people. We will even pay our own APFA court costs. How nice is that. So why all this talk of us bleeding AA & APFA dry. You said yourself the suit has no merit. So why are you worried?

By the way. How, sucsessful, is AMR & its employees in business these days?

ALOHA, 007

 

[bagsmasher]

By the way. How, sucsessful, is AMR & its employees in business these days?

ALOHA, 007


Uh, like way more sucessful than TWA, who had to throw in the towel.
Have fun at your all-TWA party.

 

[FA Mikey]

No I dont think its dramatic. Those so called extra dollars go to pay for 4 new base and vice chairs. That money will go to fighting arbitrations involving the newest members, former TWers. It will go to the added call volume and expneses, that come from adding 4000 new people to our roster. As far as AA. They are looking to save money and are doing so in the most unconventional ways. Having lost a billion plus in the last year. We can hardly afford the new LLCers, laywers and sue happy ex union IAM.

I am not worried about the outcome, of this case. I am concerned about the bleed IAM and you all are adding the our company and union

 

[rampguy]

Give me a break. All TWAers jumping on poor ole Bags. Mikey, if he would stop his whinning and quit trying to make all the TWA people unwelcome then noone would say a word to him. But here you are coming to his defense riding on your white horse. When will you two learn that it isn't us vs them anymore. It's us vs the rest of the industry. When Bags puts down his poison pen the the rest of will let it rest.

 

[bagsmasher]

If I'm the one whinning, why is it there's not 2 weeks go by that we are reading in paper about TWAer's upset with this integration?
Here shortly I will share with you things that are happening over at the MCIE good old boy club. You won't believe the things that are happening. It seems the IAM is still firmly in control.
You will be hearing many more AAer's whine when they release a TWU system wide seniority list, and we all see how many TWAer's are now at the top.

 

[FA Mikey]

It is that way where I work. It is, us vs them. It is the ex TW people with lawsuits agaisnt APFA and AA. It is the TW people still trying to get congress to attach amendments to bills. To give TW people the seniority they signed away.

 

[TWAFA007]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/1/2002 8:23:41 AM FA Mikey wrote:

It is that way where I work. It is, us vs them. It is the ex TW people with lawsuits agaisnt APFA and AA. It is the TW people still trying to get congress to attach amendments to bills. To give TW people the seniority they signed away.

----------------
[/blockquote]
ALoha Mike,

Lets try it another way. We sign away our union contracts when we were guaranteed fair & equitable seniority integration by Carty, Compton & the purchase agreement. We would have never done so if we had any idea that a so called Union would ever think that a staple job is a form of fair & equitable integration. Your opinion is that it is fair, ours is that its not.

DAL a nonunion airline intergrated Western & PanAm F/As. TWA intergrated Ozark F/As with FULL DOH. NW intergrated Republic F/As. The list goes on & on. Just because you say, well we did it the Reno F/As, does not make it right. Again I say who cares what we think. The courts will decide whats fair & equitable. I do believe that you and Bags are so mad because you think that the courts might not agree with your opinion of fair.

This is a free country and the TWA have the right to fight for what they feel is fair, just as you do. There is nothing to get upset about. Its just two different opinions that will be decide by a neutral Judge & court. Thats how this country works. What a great country it is. We are both very lucky!

Just remember that it wasnt the TWA F/As fault that TWA went bankrupt. It was bad Managment & Cartys idea. Workers & Unions of the World need to Unite. APFA says divide and conquer. You say that the TWA F/As that stayed with TWA till the end were stupid. I call it loyalty. See, just different opinions, thats all.

ALOHA, 007

 

[FA Mikey]

Lets see you freely offered to waive your seniority. You and IAM knew what Reno got in a MERGER, not the TW BK fire sale. Just because your idea of fair is not mine AA's or anyother AAer. Doesnt mean we are all in the wrong. It was negotiated item. Mr Carty NEVER promised and occupational seniority. He could never promise what he did not freely control.

TWA was not in a driver seat. Having lost MILLIONS over theyears unable to make even a dollar profit. Was headed twards chapther 7. If they needed 2 loans to stay afloat during the BK court precedings. You want us to believe that they were headed for a turn around. That the BK was for show. Not here in the real world.

As far as occupational seniority goes. Its mine, I work and have worked here. Right or Wrong as you say. No person deserves to walk in and take what I or anyone else earned here. What happened with Reno was what it was. It was chalenged in court, by both the pilots and the F/A's. Both LOST.

Delta did not offer full DOH to those carriers. If fact they went and fought it in arbitration and LOST.

You are fighting for whats fair? You got a BETTER than fair deal. You are trying to screw every AA employee by suing us. While trying to bankrupt APFA for not bending over to you. Like your wonderful IAM did when they signed away your legal rights.

You want unions to unite. I agree. We work together for the better treatment of workers in corporations and countries across the world. Not for the sole purpose of protecting bidding seniority of employees at a Bankrupt company.

APFA did what a GOOD, STRONG union should. It listened to its MEMBERS and served their best intrests.

 

[TWAFA007]

Aloha Mike,

Im not going to keep talking in circles with you. You seem very bitter & missed informed. I just hope when, IMHO, the courts do give the TWA F/As their promised fair & equitable occupational seniority, you wont be too surprised. That you can accept it and move on, but I doubt it. I know I will have no problem accepting the staple if the Courts decide thats fair, but I doubt they will. By the way did you ever read the briefs? They make great reading and they give a very compelling arguement. There appears to be a lot of evidence & testimony in support of the IAM position. There is even a letter of intent from APFA about a fence at NYC for TWA F/As. Very interesting.

The People of Brooklyn are very compassionate. They are the ones who will decide whats fair. Not you or me. I feel their first question is why were thousands of their NYC TWA friends and neighbors forced to leave their homes and their jobs and replaced by AA? That didnt appear fair. Remember TWA was once the largest airline at JFK. They do.

We will see in a year or two, whos idea of fair is fair. Until then who really cares?

By the way, are you coming to the celebration of the first anniversity of AAs TWA purchase? Remember the original thread? It should be a good party.

ALOHA, 007

 

[MrMarky]

[P][STRONG][FONT color=#cc0066 size=4]Excuse me for asking, but why would you be celebrating the one year anniversary in October??? The TWA/AA deal was announced in January, 2001, and consummated in April, 2001. Nothing happened in October that I'm aware of which would constitute a one year anniversary.[/FONT][/STRONG][/P]
[P]Hi Mikey--Just a technical correction for you:[/P]
[P]You keep stating that the TWA people freely gave up their rights to seniority. Nothing could be further from the facts. The TWA unions were given an ultimatum. It was essentially that they either waive the scope and successorship clauses in their contracts, or the contracts would be nullified and voided in their entirety. As I recall, they did so (with a gun to their head) after AA had given assurances of a fair seniority integration including I believe, sworn testimony by Carty to that effect. If I'm wrong, please correct me. It has been stated by some knowledgable attorneys that a contract or agreement is not valid if it is entered into under duress. [/P]
[P]Bagsmasher may have a much stronger point than the F/A's, because his union, the TWU, was the [STRONG]only [/STRONG]AA union on the property which actually used an arbitrator/mediator as promised, to determine seniority. I'm not trying to line up against you here, I'm just trying to point out what I understand to be the facts. The whole situation is unpleasant. I fully understand your position and can see your point of view. Unfortunately, everything changed following the depression in the airline industry. Your union made its decision prior to that however, and at the time a full DOH integration would not have harmed AA employees by and large, because you would have been dispersed across a much larger system. On the other hand, following the layoffs and downsizing, the TWA people became a cushion for AA people. They are absorbing layoffs which would have otherwise been on your backs. That's not necessarily very fair and equitable either. It is interesting to note that as I understand it, the APFA has inserted language into its contract with AA which provides assurances that AA F/A's seniority will be preserved in the event of a merger or acquisition (barring a situation similar to the one outlined above, of course). If I understand that part of the APFA contract correctly, AA F/A's have secured contractual obligations assuring them of that which they have successfully denied to TWA F/A's. Perhaps I'm in error, but that is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong. [/P]
[P]Your other contention, that TWA was bankrupt (and required two bridge loans or DIP loans during the transition) is dubious as well. Many knowledgable people with fine legal minds and a strong grasp of the facts surrounding the situation are convinced that the discovery process, perhaps during this lawsuit, or perhaps in a subsequent suit by shareholders, will reveal that actions were taken to deliberately paint TWA as a failed company. These could have included such things as paying off large debts, such as a $100 million note that was due, but for which TWA reportedly had arranged new financing. Some of these activities may have reduced TWA's cash in hand from a 1st quarter sum comparable to what they needed in previous years, to an insufficient amount to even continue operations beyond a couple of more days. According to TWA CEO Compton's testimony before the US Senate, the bankruptcy was AA's idea, not his. The AA legal team was only interested in TWA's assets, not its debts (and rightly so) and maybe it was they who came up with the ingenious Chapter 11, section 363 filing (as opposed to the more common section 365), which outsleazed the sleazy Icahn Karabu agreement, despite the fact that agreement had language in it which prevented it's being voided through the bankruptcy process. Apparently Icahn's attorneys did not anticipate the more obscure section 363, and only included language protecting the agreement from the more standard section 365 BK filing. The other reason for using the failed company defense was that it ensured quick passage through the process of governmental scrutiny. Instead of possible anti-trust problems, it sailed through DOT, DOJ and Congressional muster as a deal which was going to save 20,000 jobs and the community of St. Louis. Don't forget, Carty promised that all TWA unionized domestic workers (about 20,000) would be given jobs. Only a little over half are still employed. What percentage of AA employees have been given pink slips? The TWA agents, no longer represented by a union at AA, were immediately stapled to the bottom (this was well before 9/11) and many were reduced to part-time status. So yes, technically they had a job but in reality it was misleading at best. By contrast, the ill-fated attempted merger between UA and US was vetoed by the DOJ not long after, on anti-trust grounds. By then UA had decided to pull out of the deal anyway, but that is beside the point.[/P]
[P]Finally, the TWA pilots have an interesting lawsuit of their own pending. They allege that their union, ALPA, was secretly working in collusion with the AA pilots union, APA, [STRONG]against [/STRONG]them, and without their knowledge. The contention is that ALPA was trying to court the AA pilots into their union and that fullfiling their obligations to their own TWA members would have been counterproductive to achieving the goal of winning representation of AA pilots, a much larger group. Of course they were in the process of losing the TWA pilots and the bigger AA pilot group would represent substantially more dues-paying members. Further, as I understand it, a vote for ALPA representation by the AA pilot membership rather than a merger of APA into ALPA, would not carry with it to ALPA the $45 million judgement against the APA which the company won following the APA labor action. I have provided a link for you because it makes interesting reading. If even half the charges are true, it's literally shocking:[/P]
[P][A href=http://www.twapilots.com/html/complaint.html]http://www.twapilots.com/html/complaint.html[/A][/P]
[P]In any event, my best wishes go to everyone at AA/TWA. I just want to see [STRONG]all[/STRONG] of you working. I will continue to give my business to AA to help make that happen. Just came back Sunday from a four-flight trip and it was great![/P]
[P]Take care,[/P]
[P]m[STRONG]AA[/STRONG]rky[/P]

 

[TWAFA007]

Aloha MrMarky,

Today is the 1st anniversary of the closing of the TWA NYC bases & of the first wave of TWA furloughs, mine included. Maybe the intent of the party is to bring back the NYC based TWA employees who were either banished to STL or the street. You know at TWA, any excuse for a party. Time to break out the DOM.

 

[rampguy]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/1/2002 8:23:41 AM FA Mikey wrote:

It is that way where I work. It is, us vs them. It is the ex TW people with lawsuits agaisnt APFA and AA. It is the TW people still trying to get congress to attach amendments to bills. To give TW people the seniority they signed away.

----------------
[/blockquote]
Then you are perpetuating it. Yes, there are lawsuits just like Reno etc. The IAM didn't sign away as you alledge there rights. It has been explained to you on numerous occasions but you see fit to ply the APFA dogma. Dispite lawsuits and anything else, I get along great with my new co-workers and that includes AMT's, Stock Clerks, AC Cleaners, Fleet Svc, Pilots, FA's etc. I have had numerous employees come up to me and welcome me. So it isn't us vs them only you being scared of an IAM victory. They may win, they may not. Let the courts decide it because you can't. But, if you decide to come to work each day in bitterness like Bags does then by all means have at it. I choose to take a different route and not judge the vast majority of AA people like Bags.