Come celebrate the first anniversary of AA's TWA purchase.

[Bob Owens]

Art;
I've never seen a law that said that seniority is carried from one union to another. There is a pattern where AFL-CIO unions usually work out an arrangement but the APA anf APFA are not affiliated. What assets did the Former TWA-LLC members bring with them that went to these unions? Did the APA or the APFA get the treasuries or any other assets from from the TWA-LLC workers or did their former unions keep those assets? Why would these organizations grant the benifits of seniority when you were not a contributor? If you had no union at TWA then the answer would be simple-stapled. You belonged to a union, but a union that has no ties to the APFA. Just as your former union could refuse to recognize the APFA as a bonafide union, the APFA has the right to refuse to recognize the AFA. As far as the APFA is concerned, they could say that you were not a union member, of their union. If the APFA had assumed all the assets of your locals and a portion of the AFA general treasury that the TWA FA's had helped to build up then some mutually benificial relationship could be established. While your arguement may be that the APFA gets more dues paying members the fact is that all those members just started paying dues and have paid less in dues to the APFA than all those who were already on the AA payroll. If you were granted full seniority after paying a small amount of dues it would be unfair to those who have contributed to the organization for years. If AA had the AFA then you would have more of an arguement. The TWA F/As had a contract with TWA. The AA F/As had a contract with AA. TWA F/As agreed to waive many provisions of their contract to facilitate this merger. The AA F/As did not. Its clear that one group of workers saw benifit to the merger, the TWA workers. AA made it clear that seniority issues between the two unions needed to be worked out between them. The TWA contract is no longer enforceable. The APFA has agreed to honor the date that you started to work for AA as the date that your seniority starts, just like all the other members. There is no reason for the APA or the APFA to grant your seniority that you accrued as an AFA or ALPA member. Over the years your former unions would never lend meaniful support to these unions- always citing the fact that they were not affiliated. Now those same unions are trying to tell these unions that they should act like affiated members and honor your time as an AFA/ALPA member as if you were an APFA/APA member.

 

[ART]

[blockquote]
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On 10/13/2002 1036 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Art;

I've never seen a law that said that seniority is carried from one union to another. There is a pattern where AFL-CIO unions usually work out an arrangement but the APA anf APFA are not affiliated. . . . . . Now those same unions are trying to tell these unions that they should act like affiated members and honor your time as an AFA/ALPA member as if you were an APFA/APA member.
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[/blockquote]

Perhaps the law is a better measure than our opinions. In addition, the precedent set under previous measure of who is on first has been found to hold up in court better than what's on second. The I Don't Know's on third issue can come should the APFA become decertified and then the full URL http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml will ring true.

Levity aside, you should check labor law under Civil Aeronautics Board Reports- Allegheny-Mohawk Merger. The crux of the case can be found in a simple section. Let's see if you can find it and cite it. What you are looking for is a definition of WHAT can be ascribed to a joined LABOR issue.

It's a neat learning tool. Print a copy for John Ward. Help him hide the APFA assets and keep them out of the hands of the LLC workforce. That way he, the APFA, it's officers and ANY other entity that has conspired to staple over that part of the law that protects each working woman and man.

It isn't the assets that are brought to the party, it's who takes them home.

Go for a 1 for 3 slot in, while you can! And bring the rest of the workforce back, into a base they desire. Then you may furlough from the bottom. No games, no side agreements, no goofy tactics. Actually the reference to goofy may be found in the above URL as well. He is between Daffy and Who!

(no time to spell check today sorry)

 

[QQ3270]

They should have done what Southwest did to Morris Air in the 90s fire them all and make them reinterview or maybe just sell it all and take the asprin

 

[QQ3270]

[blockquote]
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On 9/30/2002 9:16:39 AM TWAFA007 wrote:

Aloha bagsmasher,

"The pilots and F/A's mostly went to the end of the seniority lists, and got to keep their relative bidding order flying out of STL. They are now suing to get back what they signed away to get the purchase done."

Now you know that statement isnt true and maybe that is why you whine. The FACT is the TWA employees DO have a contract with AMR, TWA LLC, & the Unions that protected their seniority. That is the contract they are suing about. The contract replaced the guarantee to their seniority that were given up in their Union contracts. This contract is actually stronger than the old TWA Union contracts and supersedes them. Its the contract that was signed by all parties to, "get the purchase done." This contract was approved by the courts and the courts will see that it is enforced. The contract that guaranteed all of TWA seniority rights, including bidding seniority, not just company or pay. Even Mr Carty testified in court before a Judge and said TWA employees seniority rights would be protected. That contract is called the Purchase Agreement. You know, but dont acknowledge, the fact that it clearly states & guarantees TWA Union employees, "fair & equitable seniority INTEGRATION." It also guaranteed an appointment of a facilitator and meetings between TWA & AA Unions and that AA would except the results of these meetings. We all know none of this happened. This is why the TWA employees are in court. They want the courts to uphold the contract.

Please, dont give me the Mike argument, "we got 100% of Company & 100% pay seniority, both of which are not true, but 0% of bidding. "What more do we want." All we want is in the contract,"fair & equitable integration of all seniorities." The contract clearly doesnt allow AA to pick & chose which seniority, to be fair & equitable. Everyone agrees, outside of AA, that the most important seniority is bidding. Your whining about bidding seniority all the time clearly shows that it is the most important to you. Why do you think it isnt important to TWA employees?

The APFA took a huge gamble by not honoring the purchase agreement, by not meeting the IAM, and not giving, "fair & equitable'" bidding seniority. Stapling is not, "integration." If they had honored the contract and had just meet with the IAM with a facilitator I am sure a compromise could have been worked out. Now that the APFA decided to make their own agreement with AA without IAM participation they are both in breach of contract. I feel that the majority of TWA F/As would have accepted an integration well short of DOH, but now it will be left up to the courts to decide and I feel they will consider full DOH. Just IMHO.

The hearings begin this month in Brooklyn. Lets see how a staple job plays out there. Its always bad when the courts have to decide what should have been a Union matter. APFA forced the issue. TWA employees are just trying to protect their rights.

If you and Mike feel what we got is fair, then you should have nothing to worry or whine about. So lets stop the arguements here. Its in the hands of the courts, not ours. We just get to sit back and watch the wheels of Justice turn.

Back to the Party in NY. 007 will be there. I will be celebrating the first steps toward our promised fair & equitable seniority integration. Whining will get you no where, but the courts will. See you at the party & the courts.

ALOHA, 007
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[/blockquote]
007 Ya we will see you in court they already shot down Reno's case and maybe we will see if the judge laughs it all the way out the door because the filed in the wrong juristiction We will see how many TWA people will just be glad to be employed just be glad you have a job we were at Reno and yes we had a union teamsters

 

[Cart Pusher]

[blockquote]
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On 10/13/2002 8:48:06 PM QQ3270 wrote:

They should have done what Southwest did to Morris Air in the 90s fire them all and make them reinterview or maybe just sell it all and take the asprin
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[/blockquote]

What, exactly, did you have to lose at Reno? 6 years of seniority MAX. You couldn't possibly know what it feels like (nor could I, but can imagine) to have the rug pulled out from underneath you. Perhaps AA should have fired all the QQ F/A's and then rehired those they wanted to keep. If I were you, I would be worried - if TW get's their way, you are going to be knocked alot further down the seniority list.

 

[QQ3270]

Well dude lets put it this way i was here first and i lost seniority OK,Ill be damn if some bankrupt scrap comes in and takes my seniority away from me.AA was very good to us and we sued the union at aa but we never sued the company nor did we make a big stink about it with other aa employees i will tell you this you will not win your law suit and if you do boy i wouldnt want to come to work if i was you.

If you dont like it here leave and go re apply at another crappy company because this company can live with out TWA and its employees

 

[FA Mikey]

ART says:you should check labor law under Civil Aeronautics Board Reports- Allegheny-Mohawk Merger. The crux of the case can be found in a simple section. Let's see if you can find it and cite it. What you are looking for is a definition of WHAT can be ascribed to a joined LABOR issue.

Mike says: That was a merger of two equal carriers. There is nothing similar here. TW was bankrupt. AA bought the assests, and offered employment to its former employees. This is not a merger like Allegany/ Mohawk or even AA Reno.

 

[FA Mikey]

[blockquote]
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On 10/13/2002 11:25:59 PM QQ3270 wrote:

Well dude lets put it this way i was here first and i lost seniority OK,Ill be damn if some bankrupt scrap comes in and takes my seniority away from me.AA was very good to us and we sued the union at aa but we never sued the company nor did we make a big stink about it with other aa employees i will tell you this you will not win your law suit and if you do boy i wouldnt want to come to work if i was you.

If you dont like it here leave and go re apply at another crappy company because this company can live with out TWA and its employees
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[/blockquote]
So you tell us cart pusher. You think occupational seniority runs company to company. You believe the loss of six years is nothing. When is it something? You are the one not effected in any way, yet with all the opinions. Tell us. Would it be OK to have all the TW people under 6 years stapled? Is 10 years OK? Fifteen or twenty?

 

[Cart Pusher]

It would all be fine and good if AA had made any effort at a fair and equitable seniority integration, yet they did nothing of the sort. And APFA did exactly what they should have done, they protected the seniority of their, then current, members. APFA did what they should have done, yet they failed to honor the agreement that AA made with the courts, which was legal and binding. AA has a legal obligation to make sure that the TWA employees are treated FAIRLY and EQUITABLY where the subject of seniority goes. The only people that see this as being fair and equitable or some of the employees with AA prior to the purchase of TWA.

Incidentally Mikey, everyone is well aware that TWA ONLY filed bankruptcy when they did as a condition imposed upon them by AA, in order for AA to consider purchasing them. It was meant to rid themselves of Carl Icahn, not to make it easy for their employees to be screwed. It was, in fact, used as a tool by the AA unions to screw the TW employees. If AA had found a way other than this bankruptcy filing to rid themselves of the Karabu agreement, then you would be looking at a very different picture.

 

[MiAAmi]

Well there are no other pictures. This is it! It doesn't matter if you think TWA would have survived post 9-11 or not. This is reality. You can second guess all you want but at some point you have to accept what did happen. As far as being fair, I would turn to anyone from US Airways and ask them if they now expect to get a 40% raise after their company has declared bankruptcy. TWA'ers recieved the benefits of all the APFA'ers hard work over the past couple of years. You walked right in and started making DOH pay. Thats more than we give our own company transfers. You guys got pay, seniority in STL and now you want to walk all over us and take what we earned here. Don't get me wrong I welcome you all but how about taking just a slice of the pie, not the whole pie.

 

[AC AA LA FA]

well said MiAAmi..I could not agree with you more..I think it is fair to say that most of us here at AA feel the same way...when all this is said and done, and we are still here at the end of the day..(I hope)..this will all be a part of history and we can chalk up another win for AA and ITS employees....you have to have patience when dealing with spoiled children, of any age.. (and senority)

 

[FA Mikey]

Cart Pusher says:. AA has a legal obligation to make sure that the TWA employees are treated FAIRLY and EQUITABLY where the subject of seniority goes.

Mike says: AA never promised Occupational seniority to anyone. AA couldnt negotiate outside the contracts with its unions. Those APA, TWU and APFA all control occupational seniority. The TW people got company and pay seniority. That by all accounts is more than fair and is very equitable.

 

[QQ3270]

thats what the judge is going to see if we didnt give them anything well then thats not fair so when the Judge sees this so called complaint boy he gonna say whats not fair TWA whats not fair we will just have to wait and see

 

[QQ3270]

neither did you because you waved yours before the buy out So why would i be jealous.So quit crying you didnt have a contract either.all you want is your cake and ice cream 2

 

[TWAnr]

[BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/14/2002 100 AM FA Mikey wrote:[BR][BR]This is not a merger like Allegany/ Mohawk or even AA Reno.[/P]
[P]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]Mikey,[BR][BR]That may be [STRONG]YOUR [/STRONG]personal opinion, to which you are entitled, but it is not what the law says. This is the legal definition of a merger:[BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style=MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px][BR][BR][FONT color=#3366ff size=2][STRONG]Section 2. (a) The term merger as used herein means to join action by the two carriers whereby the unify, consolidate, merge, or pool in whole or in part their separate airline facilities or any of the operations or services previously performed by them through such separate facilities.[/STRONG][/FONT][BR][BR][A href=http://216.156.32.93/Allegheny%20Mohawk%20LPPs.htm]http://216.156.32.93/Allegheny%20Mohawk%20LPPs.htm[/A][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR]
[P dir=ltr][BR]
[P dir=ltr]QQ3270,[BR]
[P dir=ltr]You may have been represented by the Teamsters; however, you had no contract or a collective bargaining agreement with the airline. Regardless of Mikey's opinion, it is a huge difference in the eyes of the law.[BR]
[P dir=ltr]Additionally, from the tone of your messages, you sound quite jealous. Naughty, naughty.[/P]