FrugalFlyerv2.0
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WorldTraveler said:
Yes, clearly, the DOT is DL's 5th column.
City of Dallas still in talks with Delta about Love Field
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Yes, clearly, the DOT is DL's 5th column.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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5th column or not, the DOT letter validates what I said all along that incumbent alrlines do have a right to continue to serve DAL and that they must be accommodated.
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Been kind of quiet for the first 10 days. E, could you possibly give a rough time frame for a decision like this to take place? This was all filed on the luckiest day of Friday, 13th of Feb. Is it premature to expect to hear something this week or next? March is right around the corner when SWA takes control of the 2 new gates from UAL...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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WN is obligated to honor the DL sublease until July. that is specifically noted in the lease and by the DOJ and DOT.
There is no debate that WN has an obligation until July.
the question is whether WN has to provide space for WN after July given that the lease and the DOT says that WN must follow the principles of the DL sublease beyond the July date.
that is the question that WN is challenging.
There is a lot more time than you think.
and VX' decision to add a bunch of flights was nothing more than an attempt to put up the "NO VACANCY" sign. The City, DOT, or DOJ have never said that VX was obligated to accommodate DL. VX doesn't control 90% of the gates at DAL - or any other airport they serve for that matter.
There is no debate that WN has an obligation until July.
the question is whether WN has to provide space for WN after July given that the lease and the DOT says that WN must follow the principles of the DL sublease beyond the July date.
that is the question that WN is challenging.
There is a lot more time than you think.
and VX' decision to add a bunch of flights was nothing more than an attempt to put up the "NO VACANCY" sign. The City, DOT, or DOJ have never said that VX was obligated to accommodate DL. VX doesn't control 90% of the gates at DAL - or any other airport they serve for that matter.
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More flights added to DAL and out of the 2 gates we leased from UAL. 16 flts and 8 new cities announced. SWA seems pretty confident they are going to keep flying out of these two gates...
Even More To Love! Southwest Airlines Announces Nonstop Service Between Dallas (Love Field) And Eight New Cities
Even More To Love! Southwest Airlines Announces Nonstop Service Between Dallas (Love Field) And Eight New Cities
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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With the decision to add DTW and SLC, if WN is successful in adding these flights, WN just GUARANTEED that DAL's airport access and WN's size at DAL will go to court on the basis of antitrust violations, a far larger issue than the lease.
That will not be the only implication of their decision - but I will let DL announce that part themselves.
given that WN is bating AA too, you might be surprised how quickly AA and DL can fight on issues that are equally of benefit to each other.
That will not be the only implication of their decision - but I will let DL announce that part themselves.
given that WN is bating AA too, you might be surprised how quickly AA and DL can fight on issues that are equally of benefit to each other.
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Below is a much better explanation of all that is going on at DAL Love Field. With all the expansion from both SWA and Virgin all 20 gates will have 200 plus flights per day or 10 flights per gate per day. DAL will be at max capacity come April and August. However, full capacity doesn't come until Aug 9th, maybe Delta will get another month extension on the "temporary gates" they are leasing. I would strongly suggest all airlines that want to serve DAL get together and work together to open up the cap for max gates back to the original 32 gates. It would be a win-win for everybody including passengers, COD, airlines, ect.. The only negative affect would be on the traffic immediately around the airport. At one time SWA wanted to run 220 plus flights per day out of DAL, the need is there to open the cap...
Southwest to add 8 more nonstop cities from Love Field
Southwest to add 8 more nonstop cities from Love Field
eolesen
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You don't get it. There won't be a coordinated effort to go back to 32 gates.
The DFW bondholders will sue for breach of contract, and the City of Fort Worth will sue for breach of contract. Local homeowners will file lawsuits.
No, the whole point of the 2006 agreement was to put to rest 25 years of lawsuits.
Everyone, including WN, agreed to the fences and boxes that WN would be placed into at DAL. Crying foul not even six months into its implementation? Not so sure that's going to work.
Thinking totally off the wall, perhaps WN is going thru the motions here to ensure that DAL stays boxed in at 5 flights.
Madness, I know, but think this thru a second... When announcing the post-Wright schedules, WN really didn't cut back as much as I thought they would on services to the former in-perimeter stations. Having the DOT order upheld just gave WN some political cover for whacking six or seven flights that they didn't have the will to cut before. Being space constrained, they'll be able to do just that and not be the bad guy.
But that's just a thought.
The DFW bondholders will sue for breach of contract, and the City of Fort Worth will sue for breach of contract. Local homeowners will file lawsuits.
No, the whole point of the 2006 agreement was to put to rest 25 years of lawsuits.
Everyone, including WN, agreed to the fences and boxes that WN would be placed into at DAL. Crying foul not even six months into its implementation? Not so sure that's going to work.
Thinking totally off the wall, perhaps WN is going thru the motions here to ensure that DAL stays boxed in at 5 flights.
Madness, I know, but think this thru a second... When announcing the post-Wright schedules, WN really didn't cut back as much as I thought they would on services to the former in-perimeter stations. Having the DOT order upheld just gave WN some political cover for whacking six or seven flights that they didn't have the will to cut before. Being space constrained, they'll be able to do just that and not be the bad guy.
But that's just a thought.
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E, I do get it, as does SWA. I am telling you they are discussing how and if they should open it up. It's already been brought up. Yes, I also agree it would be a huge task to take on, but it can be done. If the W/A can be changed as it was, the number of gates could very well change easier. You never know AA may get involved to open more gates so they could use them after the 10 years. I am not saying this will happen by next year (far from it) but I will say there will be attempts at it and it may take 10 years but I do believe it will happen. Just like international may happen once again out of DAL, customs were built into the master plans of the new terminal in case the need comes later on. Never say never, everyone was saying NEVER about getting rid of the W/A restrictions. SWA took care of that little by little, a small piece at a time, then boom, 7 years later W/A restrictions are gone. I will stretch out there and assure you that there will be more changes to what's left of the compromised 5 party agreement surounding the W/A within 10 years from 2015...
eolesen
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Yeah, I'm still not convinced. The whole point of "a deal is a deal" is to live with what you agreed to. WN trying to pushing an expansion reinforces the perception that they can't be trusted to hold to the terms of anything they sign. Maybe Gary doesn't care, but it's something that the courts and Congress will have to consider.
Homeowners won't agree to it because it's further eroding the value of their property and the impacts on surface streets.
If the City wants to pull a Bridgeton or Bensenville, and drop $400M or so to buy out the thousands of homeowners & businesses in the immediate proximity, they could eliminate the noise control opposition overnight...
The bigger issue is that they'll never get the buy-in from the DFW bondholders or Fort Worth.
The one party I don't see intervening either way is AA. I don't expect Parker to respond the way Crandall, Carty, and Arpey did in the past.
If anything, they stand to win by taking Herb's "passionately neutral" stance. Let the other parties rack up the legal bills and share the headlines.
Homeowners won't agree to it because it's further eroding the value of their property and the impacts on surface streets.
If the City wants to pull a Bridgeton or Bensenville, and drop $400M or so to buy out the thousands of homeowners & businesses in the immediate proximity, they could eliminate the noise control opposition overnight...
The bigger issue is that they'll never get the buy-in from the DFW bondholders or Fort Worth.
The one party I don't see intervening either way is AA. I don't expect Parker to respond the way Crandall, Carty, and Arpey did in the past.
If anything, they stand to win by taking Herb's "passionately neutral" stance. Let the other parties rack up the legal bills and share the headlines.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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there is absolutely no reason why the cities of Dallas, Ft. Worth, or the DFW bondholders will or should not vote to expand DAL if they are made whole.
It is in all of their interests to have the largest aviation infrastructure in N. Texas that is possible... and it is very possible that DFW and DAL could rival much larger cities such as Chicago or LA in terms of the amount of aviation traffic.
The only valid reason why WN won't succeed in expanding DAL is because of the community which agreed to a certain sized DAL and absolutely, as you note, has reason NOT to see the airport grow.
but WN does have money, has a market, and could agree to a lot of things including noise abatement procedures and only fly newer generation aircraft. It is not unsurmountable.
and it could involve getting AA back into DAL even if with just their two gates. as soon as the gates are available.
what you continue to refuse to acknowledge - and maybe you really don't care anymore - is that AA is absolutely being hurt by WN's growth. Whether Parker like you was really ignorant and didn't believe that WN's expansion at DAL would affect AA or simply tried to not think about it because they had already made the decision to do the merger and give up the DAL gates will be the question that is never known but the reality is that AA needs badly to be back at DAL in order to check WN's growth and defend its markets.
the alternative is to just ignore what is happening at DAL and end up with 35-40% of the local market which is eactly the position that UA is in at its hometown of Chicago, which is a competitive battlefield domestically and int'lly.
It is in all of their interests to have the largest aviation infrastructure in N. Texas that is possible... and it is very possible that DFW and DAL could rival much larger cities such as Chicago or LA in terms of the amount of aviation traffic.
The only valid reason why WN won't succeed in expanding DAL is because of the community which agreed to a certain sized DAL and absolutely, as you note, has reason NOT to see the airport grow.
but WN does have money, has a market, and could agree to a lot of things including noise abatement procedures and only fly newer generation aircraft. It is not unsurmountable.
and it could involve getting AA back into DAL even if with just their two gates. as soon as the gates are available.
what you continue to refuse to acknowledge - and maybe you really don't care anymore - is that AA is absolutely being hurt by WN's growth. Whether Parker like you was really ignorant and didn't believe that WN's expansion at DAL would affect AA or simply tried to not think about it because they had already made the decision to do the merger and give up the DAL gates will be the question that is never known but the reality is that AA needs badly to be back at DAL in order to check WN's growth and defend its markets.
the alternative is to just ignore what is happening at DAL and end up with 35-40% of the local market which is eactly the position that UA is in at its hometown of Chicago, which is a competitive battlefield domestically and int'lly.
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We will revisit that in 10 years or maybe sooner when it comes up. Here are some more good numbers from Jan to Jan. And SWA only has 90.6% of the traffic, not 97% plus as some has said on here. Hope Love Field can get the parking cleared up, I think they are adding several thousand parking spots this year...
Dallas Love Field sees January traffic increase by nearly 50 percent
Southwest to add 8 more nonstop cities from Love Field
Also on Aug. 9, Southwest will add one more nonstop flight on its routes between Dallas and Atlanta, Austin, Baltimore, Houston, Little Rock, Chicago and Seattle, and it will upgrade its Charleston, S.C., nonstop flight to daily service. Saturday-only service to Charleston is to begin April 11.
Very glad to see additional flights to ATL, AUS, Seattle and Charleston. Good areas to expand in...
Dallas Love Field sees January traffic increase by nearly 50 percent
Southwest to add 8 more nonstop cities from Love Field
Also on Aug. 9, Southwest will add one more nonstop flight on its routes between Dallas and Atlanta, Austin, Baltimore, Houston, Little Rock, Chicago and Seattle, and it will upgrade its Charleston, S.C., nonstop flight to daily service. Saturday-only service to Charleston is to begin April 11.
Very glad to see additional flights to ATL, AUS, Seattle and Charleston. Good areas to expand in...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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including the new schedules that have been announced, WN will most definitely have 97% of the seats by the summer if they succeed at kicking DL out.
the fact that you can say "only 90% with a straight face highlights the hypocrisy of WN's whining claims that they needed to be accommodated at DCA.
the fact that you can say "only 90% with a straight face highlights the hypocrisy of WN's whining claims that they needed to be accommodated at DCA.
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