Can the West Pilot's go to court?

[AWA320]

Charlie,

Go ahead. Pizz off the US Airways pilots even more, spend thousands of dollars in legal fees, and then watch the US Airways pilots negotiate per the Transition Agreement, but for some reason never reach a deal.

Moreover, I understand that is exactly what the company wants and ALPA East told management to stay out of this fight. Why? The company would like nothing better to keep the pilot groups separate, not give either group a raise, and then be able to "whip saw" the America West pilots.

Again, the only way out of this is for the US Airways and America West MEC to negotiate a settlement. It's your choice because to a man and woman the US Airways pilots are perfectly happy to remain separate.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

There's nothing to work out, that time has come and gone!!! You can try and whipsaw but that too will be short lived. This is over and we really must move on. You made your case as did we now like your reps have said over and over. "The seniority is going to be what it's going to be and we all have to live with it" Time to follow your reps advice and start living...

 

[700UW]

The West has nothing to negotiate, they won, you lost.

The East is not in a positon of power to force the West to do anything.

Might as well stop with the rhetoric and get use to being in LGA the rest of your career.

 

[flynomore]

QUOTE(USA320Pilot @ May 11 2007, 12:56 AM) *


It's a fact that Dougie and friends (Co negotiators, etc.) DO get digested posts from ALPA and other sites, and that info could be used to their advantage!

GL

=========================================================

I know someone very well that this happened to. It does and the results are not comfortable.
h34r:

 

[luvn737s]

QUOTE(USA320Pilot @ May 11 2007, 12:56 AM) *


As matter of fact, I believe that several Westies got suspended, section 19ed, and all kinds of other problems several years ago, for posting Ilegal Job Actions on a "private" web board.

Not exactly.

 

[EastUS]

"There is nothing more that illustrates the east..... self-serving attitude than your post. I've have said it many times, you will not recoup all that you have lost on my back!"

Ummm....who's figuring to recoup anything lost "on" your "back"?..and when did any "my back" spiel become anything but a flag raised in the holy cause of "self serving"? You mention the "fences that you guys want"..OK: How about EXACTLY, AND NO BS for a change...Just Answer The Freaking ?=WHY is the AWA crowd so vehemently opposed to permanent fences? If you're not interested in stealing from us?=You keep your "expectations"..we keep ours..seems simple enough. This has become an exercise in filtering through ship loads of AWA BS that do nothing but dance around the glaring inequity of the "Award", to then proceed directly on to Fantasyland as to how this "will/must/etc" become reality...and all our "junior" people will just be happy little campers...people with flight time and experiences that would laugh most of you out of any serious flying conversations...will magically just smile sweetly...and show you "respect". I'm reminded of Cartman's South Park stint as a cop..."respect Mah Authoritaaah!!"..."I'm the "CAPTAIN"....

GOOD LUCK

 

[ableoneable]

EastUS said;
Ummm....who's figuring to recoup anything lost "on" your "back"?..and when did any "my back" spiel become anything but a flag raised in the holy cause of "self serving"? You mention the "fences that you guys want"..OK: How about EXACTLY, AND NO BS for a change...Just Answer The Freaking ?=WHY is the AWA crowd so vehemently opposed to permanent fences? If you're not interested in stealing from us?=You keep your "expectations"..we keep ours..seems simple enough. This has become an exercise in filtering through ship loads of AWA BS that do nothing but dance around the glaring inequity of the "Award", to then proceed directly on to Fantasyland as to how this "will/must/etc" become reality...and all our "junior" people will just be happy little campers...people with flight time and experiences that would laugh most of you out of any serious flying conversations...will magically just smile sweetly...and show you "respect". I'm reminded of Cartman's South Park stint as a cop..."respect Mah Authoritaaah!!"..."I'm the "CAPTAIN"....

GOOD LUCK

Listen dipwad, extremely long fences, even fences going down to your most junior furloughed pilot, were on the table for your 330 and 767 seats at the PID. Your reps were not willing to negotiate, however, and refused to move off of their DOH/LOS position.

You can't refuse to negotiate, turn the matter over to an arbitrator and when you don't like the outcome demand that the other side return to the negotiating table.

ALPA national is not the only entity that is exposed to a potential DFR lawsuit. Even if you are no longer represented by ALPA the east is still bound by the award. An attempt to run from the ruling can and will expose you to litigation. You would lose.

You will just love having to pay a litigation award assesment.

 

[Phoenix]

...
Listen dipwad, ...

How special. B)

 

[ableoneable]

How special. B)

Please understand the dipwad comment was directed at him only, not the east dudes or their arguements. Some have a point EastUS does not.

Cheers.

 

[EastUS]

"Listen dipwad," Ah..another AWA wunderkind with an "It's MINE!!! attitude. You'll certainly be one that garners immense respect, both from your awesome flying experience and skills, and decidedly elegant presentations of speech. Grow up...even just a tiny bit.

"You will just love having to pay a litigation award assesment."

To whom?..Alpo?..I'm hardly interested in paying them anything at present. Your "having to pay" any assesment fantasy indicates both your utter naeivete and general youthfull foolishness. I see no gun at my, or others heads in that respect. I believe that most recent conversations have involved completely dumping Alpo..nice try though.

PS: Ableoneable (is that one of 'dem fancy "I-Are-An Aviator" terms?...somehow I think that I'll not be crushed by the "dipwad", so there's no need to fret over any offence to myself or the East guys. Whether you perceive any point or not within my above posting's your issue. I think that it at least offers up some insight into the potential working enviornment you're so eager to make a move on.

 

[ableoneable]

"Listen dipwad," Ah..another AWA wunderkind with an "It's MINE!!! attitude. You'll certainly be one that garners immense respect, both from your awesome flying experience and skills, and decidedly elegant presentations of speech Grow up...even just a tiny bit.

"You will just love having to pay a litigation award assesment."

To whom?..Alpo?..I'm hardly interested in paying them anything at present. Your "having to pay" any assesment fantasy indicates both your utter naeivete and general youthfull foolishness. I see no gun at my, or others heads in that respect. I believe that most recent conversations have involved completely dumping Alpo..nice try though.

So it's okay to refer to westies as "young punks" and to say that we are "stealing your seniority." I see.

Obviously you missed the point - wheather or not ALPA is still your bargaining agent has no bearing on your liability in a DFR suit. The east submitted to binding arbitration. They are bound by the decision even if ALPA is replaced. Should the east attempt to ignore the award the west will probably not even have to go to trial. The law is clear here and a summary judgement would be likely.

Unlike grievances punative damages are possible in this scenario. Should this happen you will have no choice about an assesment or to put it another way a wage garnishment.




PS: Ableoneable (is that one of 'dem fancy "I-Are-An Aviator" terms?...somehow I think that I'll not be crushed by the "dipwad", so there's no need to fret over any offence to myself or the East guys. Whether you perceive any point or not within my above posting's your issue. I think that it at least offers up some insight into the potential working enviornment you're so eager to make a move on.
[/quote]


Actualy it's just an easy to remember qwerty friendly word. It has no meaning at all.

The fact that you continue to insist that this award represents the west trying to steal from the east belies the fact that your understanding of the seniority system is deeply flawed.

 

[EastUS]

So it's okay to refer to westies as "young punks" and to say that we are "stealing your seniority."

Well..if the shoe fits/etc. So fire away with the "dipwad" if it makes your case seem more righteous.

"They"..

(umm..who's "they"?..and what form would/does this legal entity comprise itself of in the absence of Alpa? A replacement "union" makes for a somewhat different smelling soup to a given court's eyes. That becomes a more slippery issue than you may suppose.

"are bound by the decision even if ALPA is replaced. Should the east attempt to ignore the award the west will probably not even have to go to trial."

"The law is clear here"...Wow!....must be the only place in all of history/space and time wherein a precisely forcasted legal outcome seems inevitable "and a summary judgement would be likely."..ahh..."likely"...Ok..we're approaching the same page here at least.

"Should this happen you will have no choice about an assesment or to put it another way a wage garnishment."

I completely disagree..and time will perhaps tell.


"The fact that you continue to insist that this award represents the west trying to steal from the east belies the fact that your understanding of the seniority system is deeply flawed."

You're right...silly me...given the clarity of your thought process.."seniorty" means..umm....er...???? Whatever the market will bear at any given moment??? Oh yes=an wholly inexperienced person on the property for two months at operation A is superior in "seniority" to another at Op B hired 16 years prior...yessiree..Thanks for making your reasoning "clear"...I was afraid that this "award" was an obscenity. Now that I see that all you can actually base your notions on involves potential courtroom outcomes..I'm certain of it.

At the heart of all this..one thing remains crystal clear..AWA's group, or at least yourself, are so thrilled with this "Award" that you're falling all over yourself with threats/suppositions/etc so as to hopefully, and willfully shove it down our throats. If THAT type behavior leaves ANYONE doubting your feelings and intentions...words simply fail me

 

[Junebug172]

the heart of all this..one thing remains crystal clear..AWA's group is so thrilled with this "Award" that you're falling all over yourself with threats/suppositions/etc so as to hopefully, and willfully shove it down our throats. If THAT type behavior leaves ANYONE doubting your feelings and intentions...words simply fail me


Again, no one is thrilled over here. Relieved, maybe, but not thrilled.

And no one is shoving anything down your throat. The east agreed, no, insisted on binding arbitration. If you can't grasp that, then you're a moron.

Get over it. Its over.

 

[ableoneable]

So it's okay to refer to westies as "young punks" and to say that we are "stealing your seniority."

Well..if the shoe fits/etc. So fire away with the "dipwad" if it makes your case seem more righteous.

Dipwad fits pretty well.

"They"..

(umm..who's "they"?..and what form would/does this legal entity comprise itself of in the absence of Alpa? A replacement "union" makes for a somewhat different smelling soup to a given court's eyes. That becomes a more slippery issue than you may suppose.

I suggest you look into the boilerplate covenants and conditions your MEC signed when they agreed to binding arbitration. The "they" I referred to is all the east pilots who, by proxy, are signatories to the aformentiond document. If ALPA dissapears your obligation(s) to this document do not simply vanish. If you believe that deleting ALPA erases your previos commitments that means your contract as well and with your contract your seniority list. Can you say "merit upgrade."

"are bound by the decision even if ALPA is replaced. Should the east attempt to ignore the award the west will probably not even have to go to trial."

"The law is clear here"...Wow!....must be the only place in all of history/space and time wherein a precisely forcasted legal outcome seems inevitable

Again, you should read the documents that bind you. Unless you can prove that the arbtrator erred - and this means proof, not just jumping up and down and shouting out the terms like: "stealing, abominations, outrages etc"

"and a summary judgement would be likely."..ahh..."likely"...Ok..we're approaching the same page here at least.

The summary judgment is certain. Only the remedy is unknown. Here again you ought to read the agreement that your MEC signed when they entered the arbitration phase of the merger process.

"Should this happen you will have no choice about an assesment or to put it another way a wage garnishment."

I completely disagree..and time will perhaps tell.




"The fact that you continue to insist that this award represents the west trying to steal from the east belies the fact that your understanding of the seniority system is deeply flawed."

You're right...silly me...given the clarity of your thought process.."seniorty" means..umm....er...???? Whatever the market will bear at any given moment??? Oh yes=an wholly inexperienced person on the property for two months at operation A is superior in "seniority" to another at Op B hired 16 years prior...yessiree..Thanks for making your reasoning "clear"...I was afraid that this "award" was an obscenity. Now that I see that all you can actually base your notions on involves potential courtroom outcomes..I'm certain of it

Because you are challenged I will go s l o w l y.

Let's suppose you were the last pilot hired by AAA in 1985, further let's say no one else was hired for ten years. Once another pilot was hired he gets a number one junior to yours. The pilot one senior to you was hired on the same day. Does this ten year difference buy you anything, or conversly cost the guy junior to you? (Excepting longevety pay.)

That ten years means nothing. In the event of either expansion or contraction that ten year gulf is meaningless. Years of service count not at all.

 

[EastUS]

"Again, no one is thrilled over here. Relieved, maybe, but not thrilled."

"And no one is shoving anything down your throat."

Great!!..How about some nice big fences which could yet be agreed upon then?

"If you can't grasp that, then you're a moron."

If you cannot grasp what this means for us all as things stand...moron would be a kind term.

"Get over it. Its over."

Then hie thee hence with the needless discourse. I'm contiunually amazed at the insistence of a vocal few that "It's over"...simply shouting out nonsense does nothing to improve it's quality.

 

[ableoneable]

Great!!..How about some nice big fences which could yet be agreed upon then?


As stated earlier. Fences were offered. Your MEC thumbed their noses at fences and decided to put all of their eggs in the DOH/LOS basket.

The fences that are there are the only ones that you will ever see.