Calling ALL Cockroaches - Customers Only

[US1YFARE]

. There is no refund on an A ticket if there is a downgrade/oversale. The agent could have refared it to see if something else was available at todays fare in coach as opposed to an A class ticket, but A is a coach fare so technically no refund is due. Not sure what type you had, but just wanted to clarify for everyone that there are some First Class tickets that are technically coach fares.
Sorry for whatever happened and how it was handled.

that is just BS...not you tadjr...that rule. the old US had "A" fares that were called A4Coach...sort of like a YUP. I thought the new US considered A fares to be discounted FC fares. That happened to me once and they put me in Y and I argued with them until they put me on another carrier. My first flight on another carrier was the beginning of the end before I jumped ship. The old US held A fares out to be Y fares that got you into FC if available....the sandbox holds them out to the public as FC fares and in fact gives FC bonus miles for A fares--so, if this is how they are treating those fares (really as Y fares), then it is a major misrepresentation.

I can never find an F fare on CO...I'm not sure they sell that fare code. They sell A fares, R fares (both FC fares to my knowledge), and YUP's (a Y fare with an immediate upgrade).

 

[CynicalResAgent]

that is just BS...not you tadjr...that rule. the old US had "A" fares that were called A4Coach...sort of like a YUP. I thought the new US considered A fares to be discounted FC fares. That happened to me once and they put me in Y and I argued with them until they put me on another carrier. My first flight on another carrier was the beginning of the end before I jumped ship. The old US held A fares out to be Y fares that got you into FC if available....the sandbox holds them out to the public as FC fares and in fact gives FC bonus miles for A fares--so, if this is how they are treating those fares (really as Y fares), then it is a major misrepresentation.

I can never find an F fare on CO...I'm not sure they sell that fare code. They sell A fares, R fares (both FC fares to my knowledge), and YUP's (a Y fare with an immediate upgrade).

they have F fares. Ironically I can find F6 and F filed from STL to PHL a market that seems like it is all express.

 

[US1YFARE]

they have F fares. Ironically I can find F6 and F filed from STL to PHL a market that seems like it is all express.

I have flown over 50 flights on CO this year and I always book on their website. "F" has never come up as a fare code....just R and A. I just did a search on their website and it only showed "A" fares between PHL and IAH (with a connection to STL). CO's R and A fares are fully refundable.

 

[jimcfs]

Why not pay for your ticket in pennies??? Have you heard? The copper in some pennies is worth more than a penny!

And someone in the ClayPot will read this, actually make a marketing campaign encouraging this, and then take and sell the pennies to a copper recycler. I think the Feds might actually have something to say about that.

Please don't feed the KoolAid drinkers in the ClayPot.

 

[CynicalResAgent]

I left US and now work as a travel agent and we book a lot of affluent people who will book F on carriers.

I agree with Art, it's all about the fares. Let's look at a sample

I wanted to look at a market where US competes with WN. Lets take DEN to PHX. Obviously fares are subject to change without notice unless ticketed but at this time I can book US, F class on 10 sep DEN to PHX and back on 17 sep.

The range of US fares (taxes included).

UXAUWA4 - (least expensive coach) -$159.00
Y6- (fully refundable coach) $1849.00
Yup6 (coach instant upgrade first) - $2049.00
F6 (true first) - $2397.00

WN does not have first class at all, they have no change fees, they even allow you to transfer a ticket to another person. They do however sell a Business type ticket that allows boarding tin the first group. They have 3 fare types, US has many that I did not list between the highest and lowest.

Least expensive - $208.00
Mid price - $431.00
Business - $461.00

So on US you can pay less than WN, but get charged for drinks, bags using miles etc and on WN you don't have cannot get first class but your not charged for those things. I would guess US does not cover its cost with the 159.00 fare (I tried to price total including taxes) yet I bet they don't sell very many if ever the YUP of F6 fares. If F was priced at 600.00 - $1000.00 round trip and they gave the customer value for it I would bet people might buy it. Instead it's priced at a fare thats totally unreasonable.

 

[KCFlyer]

I agree with Art, it's all about the fares. Let's look at a sample

I wanted to look at a market where US competes with WN. Lets take DEN to PHX. Obviously fares are subject to change without notice unless ticketed but at this time I can book US, F class on 10 sep DEN to PHX and back on 17 sep.

The range of US fares (taxes included).

UXAUWA4 - (least expensive coach) -$159.00
Y6- (fully refundable coach) $1849.00
Yup6 (coach instant upgrade first) - $2049.00
F6 (true first) - $2397.00

WN does not have first class at all, they have no change fees, they even allow you to transfer a ticket to another person. They do however sell a Business type ticket that allows boarding tin the first group. They have 3 fare types, US has many that I did not list between the highest and lowest.

Least expensive - $208.00
Mid price - $431.00
Business - $461.00

So on US you can pay less than WN, but get charged for drinks, bags using miles etc and on WN you don't have cannot get first class but your not charged for those things. I would guess US does not cover its cost with the 159.00 fare (I tried to price total including taxes) yet I bet they don't sell very many if ever the YUP of F6 fares. If F was priced at 600.00 - $1000.00 round trip and they gave the customer value for it I would bet people might buy it. Instead it's priced at a fare thats totally unreasonable.

The problem is Art wants WN fares with first class service. Let's say that the world became perfect and US,AA,CO,UA and all the others had that route priced at the very same levels and tiers that WN has. Let's say that since there is a first class cabin, that seat is priced at $600. I really doubt that any of the cockroaches companies will pay the $600 to sit in first class when a coach seat is available for $140 less. So in this perfect world, they'll want to pay $461 and use their status to get that $600 seat. But....if this model is adopted, then there won't be anyone in coach to subsidize giving this upgrade away, unless it's very last minute...maybe a half hour before departure. But the second problem is that some 'drearie or normal' might be wanting to take the wife on a second honeymoon and actually BUYS the first class seat -meaning there isn't anything available to upgrade into.

FWIW, Bob Crandall tried exactly that back in the early 1990's. "Value Pricing". As an example, he raised the MCI-DFW 21 day advance purchase fare by about $50, implemented 21, 14, 7 day advance and full fare "buckets", and lowered the full fare from $800 round trip to $400 round trip. It didn't last. The the Wright Amendment was changed to allow nonstops from MCI-DAL and lo and behold the fares that Crandall attempted to introduce 18 years ago FINALLY took. Imagine how different the industry would look today if it was allowed to work.

 

[KCFlyer]

No that's not what Art wants

Rational fares mean just that. Figure it out for yourself.

Okay then...Southwest already HAS rational fares, yet neither you nor Art will fly "the big brown turd". How come? They are already providing - and have been providing for several years - exactly what you and Art and the rest of FFUCUS has been demanding. How come they don't get your business? Is it lack of a first class cabin? But....if it's rational fares with a first class cabin, does that mean that you and Art will pop for the extra $140 to sit in the front cabin - or will you expect to be compensated by the airline and have them put you there for that "rational coach fare"?

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

Well, I'm not a cockroach and the last US flight I took was a while back DFW-CLT-MDT-PIT-DFW and that was before WN was in PHL. I think I'll chime in anyhow.

KC, I think you are a bit too harsh towards Art and maybe even Piney B. Yes, they liked to get a lot of perks in exchange for their loyalty (which I always thought was misplaced but oh well) towards USAir. That being said, I believe them at face value that they were interested in and concerned for the welfare and success of the company's employees.

Nobody is entirely altruistic but these guys flew with the carrier a bunch, had some good times, had met and probably developed some friendships with some of the staff.

But here's the real deal, the raw unvarnished truth, and Art, P Bob, et al can do with it what they want.

USAirways is no more. It's America West dba USAirways. Sort of like Continental. It is no longer the Proud Bird With The Golden Tail. Today's Continental Airlines is nothing more and nothing less than Trans Texas Airways with a new paint job. IIRC Continental is still operating on the certificate of public convenience and necessity issued in 1947 to Trans-Texas Airways. Fly the route of the Starliners thru Dixie. Yee-Haw.

There were plenty of good and valid reasons why America West was called America's Worst Airline. There were plenty of good and valid reasons why Southwest was able to carry 65-90 percent of the PHX-SOCAL-LAS-ABQ-BAY AREA business traffic and do it at a higher average fare than America West. It had nothing to do with FF programs and everything to do with service. Those are not Ma & Pa Kettle once a year travelers buying full Y tickets to hop back and forth between Phoenix and El Lay twice a week.

America West dba USAirways, frankly, doesn't CARE about Piney B, Art in ISP, or anyone outside the shareholders and upper level management. That's a short and nasty thing to say, but it is very very true. It has been true for a long time. Yes, the folks at the General Office have said a few nicey nice things from time to time, trying (with some success) to keep Art and Bob and some of the other FFOCUS members buying those pricey tickets in non WN markets but the bottom line is they really don't care. Hence the recent strategy of making a pizza with so few ingredients that nobody will want to buy it.

Art, Bob....don't take it personally. To the management it's just business, you're just a source of revenue, there is no such thing as loyalty. There never was any loyalty from the company to its frequent customers....the loyalty was always a one way ticket and they got you guys to buy into it by throwing you a few bones....and you chomped on 'em like a starving lap dog. Don't feel badly, lots of other folks have done the same or worse.

You could see this train wreck coming 10 years ago.....I think I absorbed a lot of ridicule over at Holly's PlaneBusiness board back around 1998 when I suggested that WN would ultimately win the 'Battle of Baltimore' and that at some time in the future all airlines would either be just like Southwest or they would be out of business.

The only problem is that nobody can figure out how to be like Southwest. They seem to think it means cheapening your product, rather than finding cheaper ways to deliver a good product. Alas.

The BIG question, though.....is how will the flying public react to all of this "stuff"? Will US see the migration of a lot of its customers - the FFers and the not so FFers? Or will folks behave as the management believes they will.....that they will keep lining up to suffer the slings and arrows of ourageous fortune so long as the seat is assigned. Only time will tell.

As far as my prediction......oil prices will fall some later this year. The Government ought to turn loose of about 2 MM bbls a day from the Strategic Oil Reserve...dump that on the world market and the speculators will get burned, big time.....and we would see prices back in the $80-$90/bbl range. Of course, nothing will get fixed until we drill everywhere.....and neither presidential candidate is right on that issue.

Prices of fuel will fall but I doubt it will happen quickly enough to keep the industry from having a really bad year. We're already seeing a drop in airline traffic....which is usually a leading economic indicator but I think the slight decrease is less a function of a recession and more a function of higher prices.

Airlines chopping capacity will be donating passengers to the airline not chopping capacity. Some of those donated passengers will develop a WN habit.

KC is right, though, when he states that WN's fare structure is EXACTLY what Art has been demanding for years so it will be interesting to see if Art becomes sufficiently deranged at US's latest series of indignities to finally join the rest of us huddled masses on board WN.

I honestly don't know what is next. I've always said the low cost provider always has the upper hand but this is much more complicated. It's not just about being the low cost provider, success will be determined by who has or does not have a sane business plan.

Charging folks to check their baggage, charging folks to book a reservation on the phone, charging folks for a coke or a cup of coffee.....is not a way to differentiate your level of service in a positive way and create the illusion of value.

Generating incremental revenue is important, but even more important would be getting rid of unnecessary expenses. When your FF program is overwhelmingly complicated....when your fare buckets and rules are unnecessarily complicated.......when your cabin service (or the lack thereof) is unnecessarilty complicated.....all that stuff drives costs up.

Figuring out a way to collect and account for the money selling cokes and coffee may ultimately end up costing as much as selling them generated in revenue.

I've rambled on too long. US should have taken my advice 4 or 5 yrs ago. You are seeing what happens when cool northern efficiency destroys an airline, and the remnants are scarfed up by superheated grredy southwestern speculators. Good luck. The deck chairls looked really nice on the Titanic, too, once they had been properly rearranged.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

USAirways is no more. It's America West dba USAirways.

There were plenty of good and valid reasons why America West was called America's Worst Airline.

America West dba USAirways, frankly, doesn't CARE about Piney B, Art in ISP, or anyone outside the shareholders and upper level management. That's a short and nasty thing to say, but it is very very true. Hence the recent strategy of making a pizza with so few ingredients that nobody will want to buy it.

Charging folks to check their baggage, charging folks to book a reservation on the phone, charging folks for a coke or a cup of coffee.....is not a way to differentiate your level of service in a positive way and create the illusion of value.

Generating incremental revenue is important, but even more important would be getting rid of unnecessary expenses.

Figuring out a way to collect and account for the money selling cokes and coffee may ultimately end up costing as much as selling them generated in revenue.

Some one who definitely gets it. Too bad the clowns "giving the appearance of" running this train wreck don't. Could not have said it any better.

 

[elixir]

Maybe you need to stop 'smokin' that "truth"'. "Piney" is a passenger that understands the 'crisis' all airlines face. He has been around US for a long time, and definatly has a perspective from a FREQUENT FLIER. Try, if you can, to understand what these people go thru on their weekly if not daily travels. Put yourself in their perspective. That is what CUSTOMER SERVICE all about. It is not about YOUR job and how it affects YOU.
You seem selfish, and the company's prospects are important to you, but the big picture is how the customer percieves service. It is not about YOU. What if your utility bill rose as much as fuel, and they started nickle and diming you, on your rate of pay. You should care about customer perception.
Your remarks are derogatory and contrary to your own goal. Just like US.
For instance, due to the way I was treated by a certain automobile company, I will no longer be their patron again. That is, ever again. I will no longer buy their product.
A customer has certain expectations, and when the experience is taken down to bus service, or less than bus service and it is an "airline" for cryss sakes, once a former "elite" way to travel. All of the things that are expected have been in place for decades. To nickle and dime the passenger is what they are experiencing. They know about the price of gas and to them, it doesn't matter. Not one iota.
It boils down to passenger perspective and if that is an angle that FOCUS is using, it surely makes sense to me. Just try to understand.
I don't believe Piney wants to change carriers, he just wants his carrier of choice to persevere, but not at his or anyone elses expense.

Extremely well said. Look, none of the employees are happy about the state of the airline....but neither are it's highest paying and revenue generating flyers..you know, the one's the airlines SHOULD be clamouring all over?....

I disagree that the ONLY course of action is the cheapest way...that is convenient and true ONLY if you lack the creativity or resourcefulness to RETAIN passengers.

Prior to my hiring at USAir in 2000, I had the opportunity to be in the CLT sim building with a friend getting typed in the Airbus....I still worked for Express.

On the wall, I saw two framed posters outlining USAir's commitment to excellence and mission statements on the wall.....have any of you read them recently? There still two in the CLT crew room.

In short, they describe the commitment to safety, technical expertise, teamwork, respect, comraderie, and getting the job done right...the first time.
As well as, valuing our passengers, being accessible to them in the airport, making eye contact, smiling, answering their questions and recognizing their concerns...etc..etc etc

WINNING THEIR BUSINESS AS A REPEAT CUSTOMER....RETENTION.....

I wrote these things down, and vowed that if I got an interview, I'd honestly address these topics as an employee, if hired.

I killed them in the interview.

I got the job.

I guess the new management hasn't seen the posters in CLT.

The airline who doesn't forget these KEY fundamentals of BUSINESS 101 wins the race.

For Doug: either take those mission statements down and replace them with some resonable explanation of recent policies...(not just oil costs... what seperates US from THEM?.....)or read them yourself....and make a F%^*% plan to win passenger loyalty besides price....you will NEVER beat some of the airlines at THEIR game.

 

[elixir]

OK, now I'm spun up over this...

When I understood the mission of USAir back in 2000 ( based on their own published ideals) it meshed so well with how I perceive the business that I knew I would get a job here if interviewed...and I did.
The pride I had explaining how that even though I was flying a 19 seat turboprop in the NE corridor all year long, that I KNEW that I represented USAir to those passengers...every day....even though I actually worked for a "subcontract carrier"...and that my behavior and demeanor to "my" (USAIR's) passengers reflected DIRECTLY on USAir...I "felt like I worked for USAIr already..."

Hard to explain, I knew I had the job...why?

Because back then, the mission was clear: WIN AND RETAIN CUSTOMERS...

8 years later, oil has changed...($) but the game has not....at any oil price.

Tempe missed the class in college that day.

The core fundamentals of business do not change with price...EVER.

Ask any professional Realtor....as an example we can all relate to.

 

[X-U]

How about "people"? Some of you just need to get over yourselves.

How about "middle-class"? This country has grown so fond of bashing the working man and woman who support everything, it's no wonder we're in the shape we're in.

 

[elixir]

You know, I'm kinda pissed over this topic now the more I think of it... I just spent almost 2 hours with a CP flying from PHL PHX the other day...listening to him, comiserating(sp)..and explaining how ATC delays work...basically, the TRUTH about our business....know what? he told me that nobody has EVER taken the time to actually explain how it all works to him ...in 15 years of loyal flying on US.

Thats wrong....and overdue. He said to me that due to LACK of undrstanding, he always thought he was being "played" by excuses and misdirections...and he resented it.

I was off duty, going home to PHX....maybe kept one more customer for us....

You're welcome, Doug.

PS, it was a West crew, and the they were awesome...especially the Captain.

Well done, and nice PA's.

 

[Bear96]

No that's not what Art wants You're so full of feces your eyes are brown.

Rational fares mean just that. Figure it out for yourself.

This is one of the problems with what you and Art claim you want. You say "rational fares," which sounds great - how can anybody be against something that is "rational"? But you never really define it precisely. Though you will deny it, "rational" = "cheap."

Let me try to nail down some specifics. What is a "rational" fare from, say, PHL to PHX? How did you arrive at that number? Has that number changed from 2003 to 2008? Why / why not? Is that the "rational" fare for ALL flights of a similar length? Is that the number for a seat in the Y cabin, or the F cabin, or Y with a chance to upgrade (and is anything addititional, miles or $, paid for the upgrade if available, and if so how much)? Would it be a different number if there is no chance to upgrade?

 

[Singleflyer]

I'm absolutely disgusted by some of you. I'm referring to both frequent fliers and employees. Where do you get off calling people "kettles" or "drearies and normals" and referring to policies you don't like as "rape"? How condescending. No wonder you aren't getting the respect you think you deserve. I think an awful lot of you need to take a good hard look in the mirror. Being respectful and kind with your words isn't really going to change anything but at least you might have a shot at being treated seriously. As things are now, the hate that gets spewed on this board does nothing but invite more hate.

What would call the actions of an airline that charges $678.00 to fly you one-way on a dash8 or a saab 340. MHT-LGA and that is 290 miles. Then charges you $15.00 to check one bag, and then $2.00 for a coke. And to top it off they will only award you 290 FF miles and no bonus for being a CP.

I call that raping the customer, let me know what you call it.