Blended Seniority List...have you seen it?!?

[HottootrotNyc]

having that type of professionalism infused..well lets put it like this, you are very fortunate.


and the rest of us "got" a seniority arbitration law..(if it is needed for what ever reason)

Well you know what? Thats the sad out come, that new "law". If my airline was to have PURCHASED the TWA assets, I sure as hell would of wanted the people who invested all the time, energy, and years into my company to reflect that. Allowing assets and employees who were pruchased and not merged would be the exact opposite.

How could it possibly be fair in any way, shape or form, for people from a failed airline that was about to go Chapter 7, to be merged with full seniority into a healthy, growing, more stable company. It's not fair and it won't be fair in the future, if this happens again. I would not want a bunch of senior people, that came along with assets purchased from a failed company, placing me and my co-workers out on furlough instead of them. I can't believe anyone would think this is fair, for the employees at the healthy company.

If the AA F/A union didn't protect there own, there would ONLY BE AA people furloughed right now and all the TWA people for the most part would be flying high and raking in the money. So while they continue to picket and cry how unfair it was that they were stapled, they should remember that AA was the only airline willing to buy TWA with the employees and that the company had 23 million left in the bank, was buring through a million dollars a day, and has 0 assets to leverage the company out of a Chapter 11 filing.

It's easy for most to sit here and say, "Oh it's horrible what was done to the TWA people", "I would never want that to happen at my airline". Well you know what, put yourself in the shoes of the more junior or even the more senior AA people, who would of been bumped off there trips and out of there company had they not been stapled. I doubt any of you would be willing to put your job on the table for people from a failed company.

It was a horrible situation no matter what way you put it and had it not been for 9/11 and the fuel going sky high, the TWA people would of never had been furloughed and this new and unfair law would have never of been enacted. :down:

 

[aafsc]

AA guys got stapled?

Instead of blaming your co-workers from TWA (or ANY merged airline on the seniority they bring with them), blame the executives who make the decision to merge.

We do in fact blame Carty for bringing us the problem.

 

[aafsc]

having that type of professionalism infused..well lets put it like this, you are very fortunate.


and the rest of us "got" a seniority arbitration law..(if it is needed for what ever reason)

Professionalism? Get real. The ex-TWA people at best are no different from the employees at any other company. Why so sympathetic to TWAers? Let me guess, you work for US; an airline very similar to TWA in terms of a moribund route structure with less than desirable hubs with pay scales at the bottom of the industry and a crappy management team. Like the TWA people, you yearn for a transaction (ICT, UTC) so that your career can be saved and then use your US seniority to the detriment of the employees at the stronger (acquiring) carrier. You think that the McCaskill Bond legislation will ensure this. But unfortunately for you it appears none of the other airlines have any interest in entering a UCT or ICT with US.

 

[Dignity]

We do in fact blame Carty for bringing us the problem.

were they upset about Reno too bringing in that problem as well?

I recall there were other airlines interested in merging with TWA and furthermore TWA was not even in bankruptcy, yes they were losing money, but so were most of the other airlines at the time, well into the bankruptcies of others including...the legacy carriers...just recently.

The whole industry was in a mess, they would have certainly been able to qualify for the ATSB loans and been integrated some how with someone later down the road.

The Flight Attendants would have received credit for every year of service had they merged with NW, I can state that nearly 100 percent.

the 'Asset Purchase Agreement' or how some consider the ..."problem" was proposed and written by AA and the board of directors accepted that... in January 2001,

then...

they filed bankruptcy evicting Ichans Karabu ticket agreement.

that!

was not the Flight Attendants idea..(sadly it appears, forfeiting scope/LPP was the mistake apparently thinking the right thing would be done)

how was that described at the time?

... AA/TW "Two great airlines..one great future"...

the employees, Flight Attendants, had nothing to do with that however were dismissed over no fault of their own.

Most of the TWA Flight Attendants were those in their mid 50's and 60's that of course, and Im sure.. wanted to remain employed but most were concerned about their pensions as a priority.



Do you know that some of these people their pension is now hovering at 50 bucks a month,

f-i-f-t-y dollars.

instead.. if they just honored seniority(or at least credit something anything for all their years of flying) most would have flown for several more years and then end up retiring.. protecting their ability to keep a majority of their pension in tact since it was AA idea in the first place.. instead most are now furloughed forever.

over 4000 thousand TWA Flight Attendants and I believe they have a couple hundred employed today. (I stand corrected, I dont work there)

the Flight Attendants were not the problem..

 

[Dignity]

Let me guess, you work for US; an airline very similar to TWA in terms of a moribund route structure with less than desirable hubs with pay scales at the bottom of the industry and a crappy management team. Like the TWA people, you yearn for a transaction (ICT, UTC) so that your career can be saved and then use your US seniority to the detriment of the employees at the stronger (acquiring) carrier. You think that the McCaskill Bond legislation will ensure this. But unfortunately for you it appears none of the other airlines have any interest in entering a UCT or ICT with US.

do you even know what board you are posting on??

 

[aafsc]

were they upset about Reno too bringing in that problem as well?

I recall there were other airlines interested in merging with TWA and furthermore TWA was not even in bankruptcy, yes they were losing money, but so were most of the other airlines at the time, well into the bankruptcies of others including...the legacy carriers...just recently.

The whole industry was in a mess, they would have certainly been able to qualify for the ATSB loans and been integrated some how with someone later down the road.

The Flight Attendants would have received credit for every year of service had they merged with NW, I can state that nearly 100 percent.

the 'Asset Purchase Agreement' or how some consider the ..."problem" was proposed and written by AA and the board of directors accepted that... in January 2001,

then...

they filed bankruptcy evicting Ichans Karabu ticket agreement.

that!

was not the Flight Attendants idea..(sadly it appears, forfeiting scope/LPP was the mistake apparently thinking the right thing would be done)

how was that described at the time?

... AA/TW "Two great airlines..one great future"...

the employees, Flight Attendants, had nothing to do with that however were dismissed over no fault of their own.

Most of the TWA Flight Attendants were those in their mid 50's and 60's that of course, and Im sure.. wanted to remain employed but most were concerned about their pensions as a priority.



Do you know that some of these people their pension is now hovering at 50 bucks a month,

f-i-f-t-y dollars.

instead.. if they just honored seniority(or at least credit something anything for all their years of flying) most would have flown for several more years and then end up retiring.. protecting their ability to keep a majority of their pension in tact since it was AA idea in the first place.. instead most are now furloughed forever.

over 4000 thousand TWA Flight Attendants and I believe they have a couple hundred employed today. (I stand corrected, I dont work there)

the Flight Attendants were not the problem..

Yes, Reno Air was another mistake on Carty's part and the actions of the AA pilots at the time demonstrated how they felt about the matter. The only good thing is that AA bought their stock for a paltry $150 million or so. Also, they were a very young airline so none of their employees would have had 30-40 years, in fact Reno Air existed for 9 years so the most "senior" person had 9 years seniority. I believe that they were mostly non union.

You state that the AA/TWA deal was not the "fault" of the TWA people; but neither was it the "fault" of AA employees. Yet you seem to think that long time AA employees should have "paid the price" for this colossal management blunder. All three of AA's unions came out on record opposing this deal right after it was announced but they could not prevent it. So AA's unions did WHAT THEY WERE REQUIRED TO DO BY LAW which was to protect their (and only their) dues paying members at the time. If you were involved in a civil lawsuit against someone would you want your attorney looking out for the well being of your adversary at your expense? Of course not. Your paying him/her to represent your (and only your) interest. If he/she did otherwise, then he/she is at risk of being sued for malpractice; the same concept applies to unions and the members they represent. Instead of the TWA F/As directing their anger at APFA and the AA F/As, perhaps they should go after the IAM and determine if they acted in the best interests of their TWA members when they relinquished their labor protections.

And finally, I wouldn't be so sure that the union at NW and their F/As would have welcomed with open arms a group with 30-40 years of seniority from a FAILED airline and cheerfully give them their TWA time. The NW union would have risked a DFR suit from it's members. No airline was going to "merge" with TWA and infect themselves with Icahns karabu. TWA had a day or two of operating cash left; look how quickly they burned through the $200 million in DIP financing provided by AA. You have to ask yourself where would have the TWA employees ended up if the unions did not waive their protections. Unions don't waive seniority protections unless the situation is terminal beyond all doubt.

 

[aafsc]

do you even know what board you are posting on??

Yes, I know what board this is. However, that does not prevent employees from one airline posting on another airline's board. I get the impression you work for US because you are parroting the same lines that they say on their board with respect to mergers and seniority. If you are not a US employee then it is my mistake for assuming that you are. If you are a (non-pilot) NW employee, then you may very well end up non-union at the new Delta where a "seniority list" and "seniority" really mean absolutely nothing at all.

 

[Dignity]

Yes, Reno Air was another mistake on Carty's part and the actions of the AA pilots at the time demonstrated how they felt about the matter.

live and learn I guess?

The only good thing is that AA bought their stock for a paltry $150 million or so. Also, they were a very young airline so none of their employees would have had 30-40 years. I believe that they were mostly non union.

it is irrelevant the age of the company, young or legacy, the point is, if a decision is made to bring in another operation the employees should have their earned seniority credited.

I can guarantee someone having five years at a company would not appreciate being brought in at day one because their company was labeled "young" by some.

You state that the AA/TWA deal was not the "fault" of the TWA people; but neither was it the "fault" of AA employees. Yet you seem to think that long time AA employees should have "paid the price" for this colossal management blunder.

that is simply an excuse.

All three of AA's unions came out on record opposing this deal right after it was announced but they could not prevent it. So AA's unions did WHAT THEY WERE REQUIRED TO DO BY LAW which was to protect their (and only their) dues paying members at the time.

what law is on the books that allows an employee to be stripped of their seniority?

If you were involved in a civil lawsuit against someone would you want your attorney looking out for the well being of your adversary at your expense? Of course not. Your paying him/her to represent your (and only your) interest. If he/she did otherwise, then he/she is at risk of being sued for malpractice; the same concept applies to unions and the members they represent. Instead of the TWA F/As directing their anger at APFA and the AA F/As, perhaps they should go after the IAM and determine if they acted in the best interests of their TWA members when they relinquished their labor protections.

that has zero to do with seniority integration, apples to oranges.

And finally, I wouldn't be so sure that the union at NW and their F/As would have welcomed with open arms a group with 30-40 years of seniority from a FAILED airline and cheerfully give them their TWA time.

I re-state that nearly 100 percent, they would have received their seniority earned 100 percent.

The NW union would have risked a DFR suit from it's members. No airline was going to "merge" with TWA and infect themselves with Icahns karabu. TWA had a day or two of operating cash left; look how quickly they burned through the $200 million in DIP financing provided by AA. You have to ask yourself where would have the TWA employees ended up if the unions did not waive their protections. Unions don't waive seniority protections unless the situation is terminal beyond all doubt.

it appears they waived it based on promises made they would be taken care of making the process smoother...look how that turned out.

 

[Dignity]

Yes, I know what board this is. However, that does not prevent employees from one airline posting on another airline's board. I get the impression you work for US because you are parroting the same lines that they say on their board with respect to mergers and seniority.

could it be.. that happens because a lot of people embrace the idea of fairness regarding seniority regardless of airline employed?

If you are not a US employee then it is my mistake for assuming that you are.

a mistake indeed.

If you are a (non-pilot) NW employee, then you may very well end up non-union at the new Delta

I take some comfort knowing a seniority arbitration law, allows the right to have seniority resolved with an idea of fairness.. should one or both parties not mutually agree and is available for all going forward.. but it appears that is not going to be necessary as DL seems to want to do the right thing.. even though seniority integration has not been fully addressed by the union..

where a "seniority list" and "seniority" really mean absolutely nothing at all.

pot meet kettle.

(you need to read what you wrote and then think about it...)

 

[Dignity]

Well you know what? Thats the sad out come, that new "law". If my airline was to have PURCHASED the TWA assets, I sure as hell would of wanted the people who invested all the time, energy, and years into my company to reflect that. Allowing assets and employees who were pruchased and not merged would be the exact opposite.

well.. I guess that is just one way to look at it. (everyone is entitled to their opinion)

How could it possibly be fair in any way, shape or form, for people from a failed airline that was about to go Chapter 7, to be merged with full seniority into a healthy, growing, more stable company. It's not fair and it won't be fair in the future, if this happens again. I would not want a bunch of senior people, that came along with assets purchased from a failed company, placing me and my co-workers out on furlough instead of them. I can't believe anyone would think this is fair, for the employees at the healthy company.

its like this..

a company may appear healthy and in fact they are at the present time...but long term..a healthy company should not really need an immediate need of another company operations, facilities, routes and employees and....their $$$ if they are in fact viable to stand alone..

they arent as "healthy" as some may,

think..

(if they have to merge with someone else)

in this industry especially..

I would tend to think a healthy company should be able to slowly grow on their own..

If the AA F/A union didn't protect there own, there would ONLY BE AA people furloughed right now and all the TWA people for the most part would be flying high and raking in the money. So while they continue to picket and cry how unfair it was that they were stapled, they should remember that AA was the only airline willing to buy TWA with the employees and that the company had 23 million left in the bank, was buring through a million dollars a day, and has 0 assets to leverage the company out of a Chapter 11 filing.

due to the merger acquisition however people want to label it, they were AA Flight Attendants at the time of furlough and they did not take care of their own.

It's easy for most to sit here and say, "Oh it's horrible what was done to the TWA people", "I would never want that to happen at my airline". Well you know what, put yourself in the shoes of the more junior or even the more senior AA people, who would of been bumped off there trips and out of there company had they not been stapled. I doubt any of you would be willing to put your job on the table for people from a failed company.

I can honestly see (from another perspective) how some would think that way, or have those thoughts run across their minds...

but its quite one thing to have a thought to staple someone, as opposed to outright going ahead and..

doing it.

It was a horrible situation no matter what way you put it and had it not been for 9/11 and the fuel going sky high, the TWA people would of never had been furloughed and this new and unfair law would have never of been enacted. :down:

the new law is not unfair and thinking otherwise is simply, well to me...

unfair.

 

[IORFA]

Don't forget that TWA was treated ever so slightly better than Reno was. Reno was "purchased" in Dec. 1998 and all of their current F/A's didn't get seniority dates till Aug. 31st, 1999. AA was still hiring anywhere from 40-80 F/A's a WEEK during that time. AA hired probably double or triple the amount of F/A's that Reno brought to AA in that amount of time. TWA on the other hand was given the Purchase date of 4-10-2001 instead of the integration date that Reno got. Reno F/A's had to all complete integration training first before they got sseniority dates. So, it could have been worse. How come all the people that complain about TWA being messed over aren't/weren't on here chiming in for Reno back then? Double standard? Furthermore, if TWA F/A's thought their LPP's were so important to have them in their contract, WHY would they just "give them up" with only a promise? Seems very stupid to me. I am sure TWA would have "promised" them it was all going to be alright in the first place, if that was all they needed. Besides, do you really know who and exactly what was promised to them? AA promised what AA could deliver. APFA NEVER promised anything. APFA owns the seniority list and APFA amended it as it chose with AA's approval. The IAM is the one that owes TWA F/A's an explanation, NOT AA/APFA. Even after all these years and the dismissals of the lawsuits NO judge has thought these "promises" were valid or not followed. Don't forget that AA did to TWA what they did to Reno just 2 years earlier, so they shouldn't have been surprised or caught off guard. In regards to the "new law" don't think a staple job couldn't happen again. It isn't very likely, but it could happen again under the right circumstances. The law doesn't preclude that from ever happening again, it just makes binding arbitration mandatory if there is no agreement from both sides on seniority integration.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

Diginity, as for the health of TWA it was poor, no matter what way you twist and turn it, paper, air, the airline was on the brink of liquidation. It had NO money, and the only airline willing to take TWA *WITH IT'S EMPLOYEES* was AA. The other majors including Delta only wanted pieces, Delta wanted the 757's, which they finally got. The only reason AA rushed and bought TWA was because of the United/US Airways merger that never got DOT approval. If you google around you can find all the information on TWA's health.

TWA's Karabu agreement basically stopped the company from making money unless, I think,if the people were funneled through STL. The agreement didn't apply through STL, someone correct the proper term agreement, but I know that was a big part of the deal. TWA didn't have the assets to leverage itself out of Chapter 11, and therefore suffered with the agreement for many years. The only real type of deal other then the AA deal was with America West, they wanted a code share agreement and that was it. If TWA and it's unions didn't agree to AA's wishes the doors would of been closed PRIOR to 9/11. It was them finally entering Chapter 11 and AA funneling money to the company to continue it's operation and to pay right down for basic needs such as fuel. So again no matter what way you twist it, TWA was going and so were all of it's employees.

The thing I find really sad is this company didn't fail over night. It was failing for over a decade and the employees had the choice to stay or to leave and go to different airlines or to go back to school and begin a new career. The people still there decided to in my eyes chance it and stay. Everything is easier said then done but I have a friend who had 30 years with TWA and now has 10 years with CO. It was a tuff decision but she knew 10 years ago, it was time to leave.

As for you saying they should of gotten full seniority protection at any airline, well you're one of not many that would agree to that. How could anyone agree to there own co-workers being bumped to the street because some felt it was the "right thing to do", giving them all there seniority. Anyone that would of wanted to agree to that should of agreed to become the most junior people at the company and suffer what may or may not of happened.

I will never understand how anyone from TWA or anyone not in the junior AA F/A's shoes can actually say what was decided was unfair. I don't care what anyone says, you would NOT have given up your job and allowed yourself to be furloughed because of managements big mistake.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

its like this..

a company may appear healthy and in fact they are at the present time...but long term..a healthy company should not really need an immediate need of another company operations, facilities, routes and employees and....their $$$ if they are in fact viable to stand alone..

they arent as "healthy" as some may,

think..

(if they have to merge with someone else)

in this industry especially..

I would tend to think a healthy company should be able to slowly grow on their own..




due to the merger acquisition however people want to label it, they were AA Flight Attendants at the time of furlough and they did not take care of their own.



I can honestly see (from another perspective) how some would think that way, or have those thoughts run across their minds...

but its quite one thing to have a thought to staple someone, as opposed to outright going ahead and..

doing it.



the new law is not unfair and thinking otherwise is simply, well to me...

unfair.

AA at the time was a much healthier company, larger, and much richer then TWA. If it wasn't for AA's money there would of been no TWA to run through Chapter 11. So to you "it's like this" but to me and the facts on paper it was a completely other way. No matter what the future held for AA. Also as I said before AA purchased TWA because of the UA/US merger that might of happened, there was no other reason to merge with the company. They had nothing to bring to the table.

The TWA F/A's were TWA F/A's and not AA F/A's, they were fenced in STL and my friend Danny was furloughed under the TWA contract. They were new hire AA F/A's on 4/2001, and were lucky enough to gain everything from there PREVIOUS company, since they to were assets picked up during the bankruptcy proceedings.

I guess it is safe to assume that if NWA purchased TWA assets instead of AA and you were on the junior side, you would of been 100% o.k., with them not being stapled and being 4,000 numbers more junior then you already were. Since you also think it's unfair for someone to think that new law protects employees from dead companies and not at the company purchasing assets, then I guess you would also be fine with being on furlough for years on end and possibly losing your recall rights, after working at the company for said time. Is that correct?

 

[aafsc]

Good post and you are right. Dignity seems to think that binding arbitration automatically means date of hire. The arbitrator in the binding arbitration award between the TWA and AA mechanic/ related and ramp clearly demonstrates that this is not always the case.

 

[Dignity]

Good post and you are right. Dignity seems to think that binding arbitration automatically means date of hire.

you are just making assumptions, because!

you seem to think, I think that way, but I dont think that way at all!

my personal opinion is simply, people deserve their earn seniority credited (they have accrued when their company is brought over and merged into another company operation) and if that does not happen by both parties mutually agreeing (which obviously is still an issue to some),

then arbitration..

that is my personal opinion, it doesnt mean it will always be that way (D.O.H) in arbitration.

however!

arbitration will resolve it (based on a law) if both parties do not mutually agree allowing an arbitrator to make the final decision with an "idea of fairness".

nothing is automatic in arbitration..