Bankruptcy

[Mach85ER]

AA has the highest flight deck block hour cost in the industry.

Not really FWAAA.

Please spend a little time here, http://www.airlinefinancials.com/airline_data_comparisons.html and report back to the group

I'd also ask when is the last time you saw a reference by analysts, Wall Street and Investment Banks regarding "Block Hour" costs in place of ASM/CASM ect. It's a joke comparison to suit AA's needs to sway the ignorant masses.


I'll will admit that there are productivity issues that can be solved with leadership from the pilot group and AA Management. For at least a couple of years now, and most of the membership are onboard with improvements to productivity. We've also got an AARP majority membership with the pilot group, a very senior group that is maxing vacation and the health costs that come with age. That will lessen substantially in a few years with retirements. As we stand today, the company hasn't even put anything into writing until last week.

 

[strikeforce]

So if Bob wants recall of Int'l officers can we as members recall negotiating team members too? No we can't however misinformed and misguided people like Bob, JR, Pike, and Schiable were allowed to torpedo anything that did not meet their personal agendas. I think I as a member had every right to hear from my Int'l rep when the last TA went out. Instead I got the Vote No Roadshow and no opportunity to ask the Int'l why they thought the deal was good. I did get some flyer with my ballot which most of us don't trsut because we can't question a flyer.

Why does the Vote No group not have joint Q&A sessions? Are they afraid that what they dismiss and label as propaganda may make sense to us?

The Vote No group wasn't the committe that brought back the rejected T/A. And, if you wanted to ask questions and you didn't that's not Bob's fault. I asked my president questions and I didn't agree with his answers that's why I voted NO! If you want to ask La Casa Nostra Capo Jim Little a question.....ain't gonna happen! Capo's don't do roadshows....here's your answer....shut up and take it or else! That's the TWU/AA way!

 

[TWU informer]

So if Bob wants recall of Int'l officers can we as members recall negotiating team members too? No we can't however misinformed and misguided people like Bob, JR, Pike, and Schiable were allowed to torpedo anything that did not meet their personal agendas. I think I as a member had every right to hear from my Int'l rep when the last TA went out. Instead I got the Vote No Roadshow and no opportunity to ask the Int'l why they thought the deal was good. I did get some flyer with my ballot which most of us don't trsut because we can't question a flyer.

Why does the Vote No group not have joint Q&A sessions? Are they afraid that what they dismiss and label as propaganda may make sense to us?

You seem to make a very good case for a change of unions.
Because everything you just ranted about is a direct result of an unaccountable union structure.
Doesn't matter the name or position, membership recall should be in place.
You are blantantly blaming individuals by name, yet the real porblem is the TWU structure.

 

[Bob Owens]

So if Bob wants recall of Int'l officers can we as members recall negotiating team members too? No we can't however misinformed and misguided people like Bob, JR, Pike, and Schiable were allowed to torpedo anything that did not meet their personal agendas. I think I as a member had every right to hear from my Int'l rep when the last TA went out. Instead I got the Vote No Roadshow and no opportunity to ask the Int'l why they thought the deal was good. I did get some flyer with my ballot which most of us don't trsut because we can't question a flyer.

Why does the Vote No group not have joint Q&A sessions? Are they afraid that what they dismiss and label as propaganda may make sense to us?

In Local 562 we have recall in our bylaws, they should be there for the International as well. So if the members of 562 didnt like what I was doing they could recall me whenever they want. I think thats fair, dont you?

We can have a Q&A right here . There is nothing stopping International officials from posting under their names like I do, they dont have to use aliases. I get asked questions all the time, I have no problem with it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Not really FWAAA.

Please spend a little time here, http://www.airlinefinancials.com/airline_data_comparisons.html and report back to the group

I'd also ask when is the last time you saw a reference by analysts, Wall Street and Investment Banks regarding "Block Hour" costs in place of ASM/CASM ect. It's a joke comparison to suit AA's needs to sway the ignorant masses.


I'll will admit that there are productivity issues that can be solved with leadership from the pilot group and AA Management. For at least a couple of years now, and most of the membership are onboard with improvements to productivity. We've also got an AARP majority membership with the pilot group, a very senior group that is maxing vacation and the health costs that come with age. That will lessen substantially in a few years with retirements. As we stand today, the company hasn't even put anything into writing until last week.

When they retire AAs liabilities will drop as well. A paper gain but then again we have been told time and time again about AAs paper losses.

 

[Bob Owens]

The $24 billion of revenue hasn't happened very often - just once. Current average fares (as shown by AA's mainline yield) are just barely higher than they were a decade ago prior to September 11, 2001. Only by filling many more seats has AA managed to hang on.

Still the fares are higher, our wages and benefits are still much lower and they are selling more seats wil far fewer airplanes and workers.

In how many years has AMR spent as much as $8.6 billion for fuel? Answer? Never. Not even in 2008.

Bad hedging and bad business practices. GPUs sit out of service because management wont keep Automotive OT to fix them, but they will pay OT to paint baggage carts, so APUs run all night burning hundreds of gallons of fuel. Not our fault, not our decision, like I said they are burning money.

Must have hit a nerve to inspire that rant. Instead of saying what Cordle and WT say back up what you claim with some verifiable data college boy.
We have been asking AA to do so for three years, still waiting.

Yes AAs costs have gone up, so have ours.

 

[comatose]

In Local 562 we have recall in our bylaws, they should be there for the International as well. So if the members of 562 didnt like what I was doing they could recall me whenever they want. I think thats fair, dont you?

We can have a Q&A right here . There is nothing stopping International officials from posting under their names like I do, they dont have to use aliases. I get asked questions all the time, I have no problem with it.

Bob, with the company wanting the prefunding trust abolished, is the TWU unfairly representing its members by agreeing only to return what each employee has contributed? Nothing about doing away with the prefunding is in the best interest
of members. It seems to me the the TWU is opening itself up to a DFR showdown.

 

[Overspeed]

Still the fares are higher, our wages and benefits are still much lower and they are selling more seats wil far fewer airplanes and workers.



Bad hedging and bad business practices. GPUs sit out of service because management wont keep Automotive OT to fix them, but they will pay OT to paint baggage carts, so APUs run all night burning hundreds of gallons of fuel. Not our fault, not our decision, like I said they are burning money.

Must have hit a nerve to inspire that rant. Instead of saying what Cordle and WT say back up what you claim with some verifiable data college boy.
We have been asking AA to do so for three years, still waiting.

AA fares are higher, maintenance costs are higher than your competitors (that includes all costs labor, materials, and overhead), and you do not have fewer workers than your competitors per aircraft for like work. Sure the labor for working on outsourced aircraft and parts is not part of the comparison but who cares. If I am an operator and I pay less for more people to do the work outside and I meet the regulatory obligations than I don't give a damn about the number of workers. It is the overall cost to deliver a product in this case airworthy aircraft. The other guys get it done for less overall cost. Happy people? I don't think shareholders and the BOD can value "happiness" in to share price other than you saying happy people fix airplanes faster.

Didn't hit a nerve in fact I only stated the obvious. You are only a scapegoat if you allow yoursefl to be. You're the general leading the charge, if you know half or more of the officers and troops will not follow you then you did not plan well.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." Sun Tzu

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, with the company wanting the prefunding trust abolished, is the TWU unfairly representing its members by agreeing only to return what each employee has contributed? Nothing about doing away with the prefunding is in the best interest
of members. It seems to me the the TWU is opening itself up to a DFR showdown.

Not if its ratified by an unknowing membership. Look at the Rosen letter, its written to cover the union without revealing the pertinent facts. I beleive that they have deliberately misled some of the Fleet Presidents as I'm hearing things like "prefunding is like Social Security, our funds are used to pay current retirees and new workers would pay our benefits when we retire. Thats false, if that were the case there would be no reason to throw us all out of Prefunding.

I also heard "They arent terminating the plan, just changing the way we pay for retiree medical. True, they are not terminating the plan, just our participation in the plan. Once we are terminated from the plan the matching funds in our accounts will cover shortfalls that the company has to cover from their general funds, so in other words we will be funding their obligations to retirees and getting nothing in exchange. The retirees are entitled to get this coverage so its not like we are looking out for them, we are giving the company a huge gift.

One would think that the International would make an effort to explain all this instead of having Rosen put out a lot of double talk but my guess is that the people in control have more to gain by having us give this up than they have to lose. Koziatek explained how the plan worked to me 11 years ago, its not like its new, It was specifically written to provide us the maximum possible protection in Bankruptcy or unilateral termination.

 

[Overspeed]

Not really FWAAA.

Please spend a little time here, http://www.airlinefinancials.com/airline_data_comparisons.html and report back to the group

I'd also ask when is the last time you saw a reference by analysts, Wall Street and Investment Banks regarding "Block Hour" costs in place of ASM/CASM ect. It's a joke comparison to suit AA's needs to sway the ignorant masses.


I'll will admit that there are productivity issues that can be solved with leadership from the pilot group and AA Management. For at least a couple of years now, and most of the membership are onboard with improvements to productivity. We've also got an AARP majority membership with the pilot group, a very senior group that is maxing vacation and the health costs that come with age. That will lessen substantially in a few years with retirements. As we stand today, the company hasn't even put anything into writing until last week.

Block hour is a bad comparsion if not adjusted for various factors like fleet type, age, engine types, maintenance programs, etc... CASM has problems to as well. Many analysts use things like stage length adjusted seat miles which make assumptions that all airlines have the same seating configuration. Bottom line, unless you do the deep dive on the comparisons most of those numbers are good for directional decisions like lowering costs or generating more revenue.

 

[Buck]

What does all the TWU/TWU International negotiating committee have to do with this thread?

I know that I have been scolded in the past for deviating from the original post, whats the answer?

 

[Bob Owens]

AA fares are higher, maintenance costs are higher than your competitors (that includes all costs labor, materials, and overhead), and you do not have fewer workers than your competitors per aircraft for like work. Sure the labor for working on outsourced aircraft and parts is not part of the comparison but who cares. If I am an operator and I pay less for more people to do the work outside and I meet the regulatory obligations than I don't give a damn about the number of workers. It is the overall cost to deliver a product in this case airworthy aircraft. The other guys get it done for less overall cost. Happy people? I don't think shareholders and the BOD can value "happiness" in to share price other than you saying happy people fix airplanes faster.

Didn't hit a nerve in fact I only stated the obvious. You are only a scapegoat if you allow yoursefl to be. You're the general leading the charge, if you know half or more of the officers and troops will not follow you then you did not plan well.

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." Sun Tzu

You say "Maintenance costs are higher "at AA, well there could be several reasons for that, optional mods, older aircraft, the decision to sell off parts, deferral of work in the past, the decision not to defer optional mods and ship work out to Timco while retaining an underutilized maintence base, doing 3p work overseas with mechanics earning around $45/hr. Inefficient management (such as what you cited about laptops while working) unnecessary expenditures such as new furniture and appliances in the break rooms and now they want to issue tablets to every mechanic.
You say the other guys get it done for less overall cost. Prove it, because you apparently know more than Arpey.
Did I say I was a scapegoat?

 

[Mr Red]

You say "Maintenance costs are higher "at AA, well there could be several reasons for that, optional mods, older aircraft, the decision to sell off parts, deferral of work in the past, the decision not to defer optional mods and ship work out to Timco while retaining an underutilized maintence base, doing 3p work overseas with mechanics earning around $45/hr. Inefficient management (such as what you cited about laptops while working) unnecessary expenditures such as new furniture and appliances in the break rooms and now they want to issue tablets to every mechanic.
You say the other guys get it done for less overall cost. Prove it, because you apparently know more than Arpey.
Did I say I was a scapegoat?

AA the airline run by beancounters knows exactly what everything costs!!!If it wasn't competitive it would be G O N E !!

 

[Overspeed]

You say "Maintenance costs are higher "at AA, well there could be several reasons for that, optional mods, older aircraft, the decision to sell off parts, deferral of work in the past, the decision not to defer optional mods and ship work out to Timco while retaining an underutilized maintence base, doing 3p work overseas with mechanics earning around $45/hr. Inefficient management (such as what you cited about laptops while working) unnecessary expenditures such as new furniture and appliances in the break rooms and now they want to issue tablets to every mechanic.
You say the other guys get it done for less overall cost. Prove it, because you apparently know more than Arpey.
Did I say I was a scapegoat?

Optional mods, by your interpretation. Winglets save fuel, cabin refurb sells more seats for more revenue, deferring mntc was a cost saving measure because they thought we would be making money by now, underutilized maintenance base by your standards, the overseas maintenance is part of the outsourcing at AA that is way below industry standard, etc...

Are you endorsing management discipline the slackers? We agree on something.

Technology is badly needed and will make my job easier. I kind of like that.

I have proven it. You don't listen.

No your supporters are already calling you that (i.e. they know your angle on negotiations can't work)

 

[Bob Owens]

Optional mods, by your interpretation. Winglets save fuel, cabin refurb sells more seats for more revenue, deferring mntc was a cost saving measure because they thought we would be making money by now, underutilized maintenance base by your standards, the overseas maintenance is part of the outsourcing at AA that is way below industry standard, etc...

Are you endorsing management discipline the slackers? We agree on something.

Technology is badly needed and will make my job easier. I kind of like that.

I have proven it. You don't listen.

No your supporters are already calling you that (i.e. they know your angle on negotiations can't work)

Sure winglets save fuel, but they also cost money, how long will it take t o recover the expenses related to doing this mod?
Cabin refurbs sell more seats? Really? So are you claiming we will see an increase in our load factors because of these mods? I doubt it since all the flights I get on are full anyway. If they are full you can't sell any more seats.
If they deferred maintenance because they thought we would be making money then why aren't they deferring refurbishing the cabins that are full anyway?
How many c checks have they done in DWH? How many shops have they opened?
So tell us how come AA has no problem paying AA mechanics $45/hr in Europe but they wont pay it here?
Discipline no, direct yes.
How do you listen to written text? Prove that outsoucing maintenance lowers overall costs.