Bankruptcy

[Bob Owens]

Best I can tell the only change is now everyone is going to lose their prefunded retirement medical not just those under 50.

Let me comment on that.

Do you feel thats good or bad ?

In the TA we turned down the company said that those over 50 would continue prefunding and those under would not, those under 50 could use their contributions to buy credits for retiree medical, they get nothing for the match. If they wanted retiree medical they had to turn over their contributions (plus the match) before they could use their sick time to buy coverage. The company was not only charging much more than other "conceptually similar" plans but they were giving us much less sick time to bank, no means to rebuild our banks after a catastrophic illnees or injury and reserved the right to raise the amount of hours need to buy coverage after three years.

This would have split the membership right down the middle. Another divisive condition within the workforce.

OK so if this had been voted in all the guys under 50 would be out of prefunding, they would have all lost their matching funds, in my case $6500 and would have also had to give the company our contributions now to buy coverage years down the road, in my case another $6500, so for two years of retiree medical it would have cost me $13000 from a safe trust fund In a BK filing that would all be 'at risk".

Now comes the next round of negotiations, more than half of us are out of the prefunding plan and the company has kept both our contributions and the matching funds, what do you think is going to happen to those who are still in the plan? They will be a minority. What are the chances that those who lost all their prefunding will fight for those who still have it ? You helped take it away from us and we would retuirn the favor. Thats why most senior guys voted against this. It would be gone, you would be left with the same options as us, if you want any retiree medical you will have to turn over all the funds to the company for just a few years of coverage and before we negotiate a new deal they could raise it from 20 per month, to 30 to whatever they felt like. Then after they get us all out they could turn around and cancell the plan, and then all they would have to do is return any remaining funds that are in the accounts of retirees under 65 to them, everyone else is simply screwed. They would pocket over $100 million. Even if you retire you are not safe. Retiree medical is not protected like Pensions.

Or:

Lets say that passed then a year later company approaches the TWU saying that they need the TWU to agree to dump the Retiree medical altogether and the TWU must agree or they will file for BK and dump OH. Dont you think the TWU would agree to that? You would get screwed as well, but the company may let you buy credits with your contributions. Now the company has all our funds, both the matching and the contributions that we paid from our after tax paychecks. We took this money out of a bankruptcy proof trust and gave it to the company for "credits" to buy retiree medical, then, when the company cant get what it wants from the pilots, they file BK anyway, how much would those credits be worth? ZERO. So I would have lost $13000. You would lose even more.

Heres the big pictiure, the company wants out of retiree medical, and not only do they want out, they want to find a way to steal all the money from our accounts which are now in a Trust Fund held by JP Morgan that they cant touch in bankruptcy. If they unilaterally cancell it they get nothing, it all either goes back to us or remains in our accounts. In the TA they wanted to take it all from those under 50, both the match and our contributions, then no doubt come for you guys later. Now they are only trying to steal the matching funds but do it all in one fell swoop. They still would pocket $57 million just from our contract group.

One thing thats better about this situation than the TA is we are all in the same boat, old, young, line OH, we either stick together or we all sink.

 

[strikeforce]

I would be more concerned about the future of OH as far as the COMPANY is concernned. You are obsessing with what Bob Owens might or might not want. He is only ONE person.
You should be more aware about the TWU/AA partnership!

Now you're talking! Look, there's more to these negotiations than some want to understand. The TWU INTL and AA have already discussed how the new T/A will look. There are politics involved in passing any T/A with the president's council. Simiar to Obama needing the support of dems & republicans to pass any bill. I don't know the final tally but I believe the president's council swings towards Little unless the Tulsa reps are against him too. I know that Luis from Tulsa was in Little's corner, but not so sure about Hewitt? At ORD, Gilboy is not running for re-election so Little is losing a player there....he lost a player from DFW now that Peterson is in, but Little may gain that ORD player back in 2012 because McCormick is running for prez again and he is definitely close to Videtich and Little. If you go back to the TWU negotiations update letter dated October 15, 2010, Little's close allies took it in the shorts for trying to pass that POS T/A and the INTL supposedly CHANGED the way they will do business going forward and that they GET IT....well, did they really GET IT.....yea, by punishing US and inserting the presidents that they didn't like so these guys can get blamed for agreeing to a worse deal than the MAY 2010 deal. It's ALL politics brothers.....therefore, I'm NOT voting for any candidates that have ties to the TWU INTL, Little, Videtich and the other clowns! We need a CLEAN slate at ORD!

So, in theory you're right WE need to be more worried about the TWU INTL and AA tag teaming to ramrod another garbage deal down our throats much like Fleet! I'm sure the deal has been hashed out and now it's up to Little & Videtich to rub elbows with their sidekicks to get it through the president's council......somehow! I can assure you of one thing....the TWU will NOT ask for release come mid November.

 

[TWU informer]

So I guess you buy into the line that if Timco pays their guys $25/hr then you have to compete with that rate of pay? If that's how you feel fine, but don't accuse me of trying to sell you out, I've never told you what you should get, only that you need to take into account that we can't survive on wages that are low enough to make you feel secure.

If UAL outsources and spends more on OH than AA does, that's where that 13% figure comes into play and why FWAAA has such heartburn over it, then there is obviously a cost benefit to insourcing. The question is where is the crossover point where that's no longer the case and how close can we get to it? Ups told their guys the number was $40/ hr. So figure it's somewhere above that and below $50.

Bob,

I am currently making much more than $25 per hour. And the T/A was offering $3 plus per hour on top of that.
So I am not offering to compete with $25, I was accepting much more than that.

I understand that you are in a union that represents both line and overhaul.
And I understand there are differences in market rates for both our jobs.

Again I did not create this division, go have your powerful AFL-CIO democrats change the NMB Manual and quit bitching at me.
If you want to be seperated then go talk with them about your problem and quit blaming everyone else except those who created your problem...THE NMB.

You are now asking me where the crossover line of uncomptetive overhaul wages is for in-sourced work and how close we can get to it.

Don't you think that since you are our negotiator and have been at it for over four years, you should be giving me that answer instead of asking?
I mean no offense Bob, but after all this time, all I hear you argueing is a bunch of "What If's" and possible scenarios,

If AA wont provide it to you, and the International wont fund it, then why not take up collection, make a motion at a negotiating committee to have all locals fund the analysis, or have your own Local pay for it. But for Gods Sake Bob get some freaking facts already and quit negotiating and argueing maybe's., because my future is at stake here as well as yours. My Local spends millions on BS, ask Cirri to fund it and get back with me what he says.

AGAIN BOB, let me be clear here as Obama always says, get some freaking fAActs and quit asking me and others the questions that you should have had answers to long ago in this process.

 

[Birdman]

I dont think Bob or any of us "line guys" want to price you out of anything. You should vent your anger at places like Timco where your wages and benefits are far superior. While us "line guys" look at the line operations of UPS and Southwest where their wages and benefits are far superior. Do you understand the logic...

Why is it logical for you "line guys" to compare your wages to WN's "line guys" but not our o/h wages to WN's overhaul wages? O, it's the outsource ratio? I see.

 

[strikeforce]

Let me comment on that.

Do you feel thats good or bad ?

In the TA we turned down the company said that those over 50 would continue prefunding and those under would not, those under 50 could use their contributions to buy credits for retiree medical, they get nothing for the match. If they wanted retiree medical they had to turn over their contributions (plus the match) before they could use their sick time to buy coverage. The company was not only charging much more than other "conceptually similar" plans but they were giving us much less sick time to bank, no means to rebuild our banks after a catastrophic illnees or injury and reserved the right to raise the amount of hours need to buy coverage after three years.

This would have split the membership right down the middle. Another divisive condition within the workforce.

OK so if this had been voted in all the guys under 50 would be out of prefunding, they would have all lost their matching funds, in my case $6500 and would have also had to give the company our contributions now to buy coverage years down the road, in my case another $6500, so for two years of retiree medical it would have cost me $13000 from a safe trust fund In a BK filing that would all be 'at risk".

Now comes the next round of negotiations, more than half of us are out of the prefunding plan and the company has kept both our contributions and the matching funds, what do you think is going to happen to those who are still in the plan? They will be a minority. What are the chances that those who lost all their prefunding will fight for those who still have it ? You helped take it away from us and we would retuirn the favor. Thats why most senior guys voted against this. It would be gone, you would be left with the same options as us, if you want any retiree medical you will have to turn over all the funds to the company for just a few years of coverage and before we negotiate a new deal they could raise it from 20 per month, to 30 to whatever they felt like. Then after they get us all out they could turn around and cancell the plan, and then all they would have to do is return any remaining funds that are in the accounts of retirees under 65 to them, everyone else is simply screwed. They would pocket over $100 million. Even if you retire you are not safe. Retiree medical is not protected like Pensions.

Or:

Lets say that passed then a year later company approaches the TWU saying that they need the TWU to agree to dump the Retiree medical altogether and the TWU must agree or they will file for BK and dump OH. Dont you think the TWU would agree to that? You would get screwed as well, but the company may let you buy credits with your contributions. Now the company has all our funds, both the matching and the contributions that we paid from our after tax paychecks. We took this money out of a bankruptcy proof trust and gave it to the company for "credits" to buy retiree medical, then, when the company cant get what it wants from the pilots, they file BK anyway, how much would those credits be worth? ZERO. So I would have lost $13000. You would lose even more.

Heres the big pictiure, the company wants out of retiree medical, and not only do they want out, they want to find a way to steal all the money from our accounts which are now in a Trust Fund held by JP Morgan that they cant touch in bankruptcy. If they unilaterally cancell it they get nothing, it all either goes back to us or remains in our accounts. In the TA they wanted to take it all from those under 50, both the match and our contributions, then no doubt come for you guys later. Now they are only trying to steal the matching funds but do it all in one fell swoop. They still would pocket $57 million just from our contract group.

One thing thats better about this situation than the TA is we are all in the same boat, old, young, line OH, we either stick together or we all sink.

In all fairness Bob, if fleet ratifies their T/A the TWU INTL will agree to the same thing for M&R. The members electing to retire within 90 days will have retiree medical, and the majority of others will lose the employer contributions because AA will use the matching funds that were allocated for ME will instead be used to provide a retiree their medical benefits....much like social security or other ponzi schemes. I have a big problem with that.

 

[strikeforce]

Why is it logical for you "line guys" to compare your wages to WN's "line guys" but not our o/h wages to WN's overhaul wages? O, it's the outsource ratio? I see.

OH & Line can both make UPS wages, nobody's disputing that, and I think it can be done, but, in order for AA to pay those wages OH will have to bring in huge numbers of SRP's, OSM's & maybe the new Airline Support Mechanic and pay these guys minimum wages. It has to balance out in order for it to work. Now, are you and others willing to work side by side with a majority of unlicensed workers on the docks???? That's the question???

 

[Bob Owens]

Why is it logical for you "line guys" to compare your wages to WN's "line guys" but not our o/h wages to WN's overhaul wages? O, it's the outsource ratio? I see.

Ask TWU Informer, he is the one that says if we ask for prevailing wages for airline mechanics we are trying to price him out of a job.

I've brought what you said up many times on this board, also that people go to Timcos usually to get experience so they can get to a Major carrier and that Timco doesnt charge the carriers what they pay the guys for their labor, they charge them much more. So what Timco pays their mechanics is irrelevant, "what does the carrier pay Timco for that labor" is the question.

People who do otherwise are unwittingly getting sucked into making the companys arguement and not the workers arguement.

Like I've also pointed out, UAL maintenance costs went up when they outsourced, according to their own documents outsourced maintenance services makes up 13% of their costs.

 

[Bob Owens]

Now, are you and others willing to work side by side with a majority of unlicensed workers on the docks???? That's the question???

Are you willing to do it on the line? I'm not.

 

[TWU informer]

Ask TWU Informer, he is the one that says if we ask for prevailing wages for airline mechanics we are trying to price him out of a job.

I've brought what you said up many times on this board, also that people go to Timcos usually to get experience so they can get to a Major carrier and that Timco doesnt charge the carriers what they pay the guys for their labor, they charge them much more. So what Timco pays their mechanics is irrelevant, "what does the carrier pay Timco for that labor" is the question.

People who do otherwise are unwittingly getting sucked into making the companys arguement and not the workers arguement.

Like I've also pointed out, UAL maintenance costs went up when they outsourced, according to their own documents outsourced maintenance services makes up 13% of their costs.

So basically after over four years of negotiations, you cannot present an accurate proposal to AA or on this bulletin board that would include my pension and retirement medical value that would be a competetive wage for overhaul? Instead you are asking on this board for answers. Well then most likely you cannot do that for the line either. You just want to be at the top in wage and ignore the value of your defined benefit pension, and your retirement medical plan?

Once again you ask me a question that I feel after four years as one of my negotiators you should be providing me the member the answer to.
It is not like this is a new subject in the debate at the table. It has been the debate in negotiations since day one.

Why hasn't our negotiating committee obtained independent cost analysis on these matters?

Why after four years do I see you asking questions on this board that you should have answers to before negotiatiions even started?

No freakin wonder even to this day we are hoping and praying on bluff of release from the NMB.

 

[Bob Owens]

You are now asking me where the crossover line of uncomptetive overhaul wages is for in-sourced work and how close we can get to it.

Don't you think that since you are our negotiator and have been at it for over four years, you should be giving me that answer instead of asking?

Dont recall asking you the question but stating that it is 'the" question, I would not expect you to have the answer nor do I expect that the company will share the required information to answer it either. Like I said the feedback we got from workers at UPS was that UPS said if they met the Unions desire to insource that the best they could offer was $40/hr. So keeping in mind that this was in the context of negotiations it would probably be north of that.

I did however ask you a question on Prefunding, you didnt respond to that one.

 

[TWU informer]

Ask TWU Informer, he is the one that says if we ask for prevailing wages for airline mechanics we are trying to price him out of a job.

I've brought what you said up many times on this board, also that people go to Timcos usually to get experience so they can get to a Major carrier and that Timco doesnt charge the carriers what they pay the guys for their labor, they charge them much more. So what Timco pays their mechanics is irrelevant, "what does the carrier pay Timco for that labor" is the question.

People who do otherwise are unwittingly getting sucked into making the companys arguement and not the workers arguement.

Like I've also pointed out, UAL maintenance costs went up when they outsourced, according to their own documents outsourced maintenance services makes up 13% of their costs.

Yeah that's it. Go ask TWU Informer, maybe he can tell you what the "All-in" prevailing wage is that includes our defined pension and retirement insurance value.

TWU Informer is the one that has been paid to represent you in negotiations.

TWU Informer is the one that asked you to vote NO.

TWU Informer is the one that was ready with a plan once you voted NO to prove to you it was the right thing to do.

What is the workers arguement Bob? A Boat Load of questions that you have that should have specific value answers and should have been answers in the memberships hands before we started negotations?


Screw you Bob, you cannot answer these basic elementary questions so instead you attack me for being concerned about my job and future. Great Leader you are pal.

I am not the fall guy for your ignorance, your inability to lead effectively, or the failure of the negotiating commitee to have professional assistance in negotiations.

PS BOB, check your facts about people going to TIMCO for experience. Here at AA in Tulsa, we hire zero experienced relatives of current employees and the TWU makes us train them how to our jobs. That is the real world and the truth, not just what sounds good or what people want to hear.

 

[strikeforce]

Are you willing to do it on the line? I'm not.

I'm not either! But, you know as well as I do AA will not pay 11,000 mechanics $50/hr, Bob.

 

[Bob Owens]

So basically after over four years of negotiations, you cannot present an accurate proposal to AA or on this bulletin board that would include my pension and retirement medical value that would be a competetive wage for overhaul? Instead you are asking on this board for answers. Well then most likely you cannot do that for the line either. You just want to be at the top in wage and ignore the value of your defined benefit pension, and your retirement medical plan?

Once again you ask me a question that I feel after four years as one of my negotiators you should be providing me the member the answer to.
Why after four years do I see you asking questions on this board that you should have answers to before negotiatiions even started?

First of all I came into this process a little less than three years ago. The Table Position and strategy of "ask for nothing and you wont be dissapointed " was already established. I am a representative from a Line station, while I work with the bases and support their issues I leave it up to them to determine what their issues are. I know what we need on the line and what competitors pay. I do not dictate to Sam what he does, you do, you are part of his Local. What Timco charges would be proprietory information and not be accessible even with 514s huge treasury. Its probably different for each customer. So in a way its like a card game where you have to guess what your opponent has by things you can see and have seen.

I have asked you questions, but I think its clear to everyone that what you are claiming I'm asking you are in fact not questions directed at you, but there have been questions that were clearly directed at you, preceeding these rants, that you have not addressed. No, you dont have to answer them, thats you right, but that leaves us more room for formulate our own for you and becomes even more clear as your anger spills out in your posts.

Perhaps before you type ask yourself "How would Jesus respond to this?.

 

[strikeforce]

Ask TWU Informer, he is the one that says if we ask for prevailing wages for airline mechanics we are trying to price him out of a job.

I've brought what you said up many times on this board, also that people go to Timcos usually to get experience so they can get to a Major carrier and that Timco doesnt charge the carriers what they pay the guys for their labor, they charge them much more. So what Timco pays their mechanics is irrelevant, "what does the carrier pay Timco for that labor" is the question.

People who do otherwise are unwittingly getting sucked into making the companys arguement and not the workers arguement.

Like I've also pointed out, UAL maintenance costs went up when they outsourced, according to their own documents outsourced maintenance services makes up 13% of their costs.

I have my share of disagreements with TWU Informer, but he's right....why does AA withhold information from the union??? It's the TWU's right as the bargaining agent to get all information and if you're not getting vital information how is the union able to make a case for the proposals that you exchange???? I believe the TWU has a right to know what Timco is charging AA because that's the only way of knowing if the TWU can compete. I also tend to believe that the TWU knows much more information than you lead us to believe, and is withholding that information from the membership.....for whatever reasons, good or bad. I guess we'll never know!

 

[TWU informer]

First of all I came into this process a little less than three years ago. The Table Position and strategy of "ask for nothing and you wont be dissapointed " was already established. I am a representative from a Line station, while I work with the bases and support their issues I leave it up to them to determine what their issues are. I know what we need on the line and what competitors pay. I do not dictate to Sam what he does, you do, you are part of his Local. What Timco charges would be proprietory information and not be accessible even with 514s huge treasury. Its probably different for each customer. So in a way its like a card game where you have to guess what your opponent has by things you can see.

I have asked you questions, but I think its clear to everyone that what you are claiming I'm asking you are in fact not questions directed at you, but there have been questions that were clearly directed at you, preceeding these rants, that you have not addressed. No, you dont have to answer them, thats you right, but that leaves us more room for formulate our own for you.

Unlike others here Bob, if I dont have an answer, I am not compelled to answer with BS to pretend I am all knowing.
I am comfortable with not answering that which I have no answer for.

Also, when you get done playing cards, and if I still have job, can we hire someone to NEGOTIATE?

It doesnt really matter who these questions are directed at. Either the Union should have answers to them or by now the company should have provided proof of their position.

Unless of course in the card game facts dont really matter it is really a game of who can bluff and not get called and removed from the game. Which would explain your belief that the request for release will change the outcome of the card game. I dont think so, I think we end up deeper in the wrong end of nowhere.

I am just appauled that the negotiations that my future rides on is like a card game, and that this description comes from a negotiator in the know.

So it is overhaul committe members job to repesent my interest and you are all for the line and your GEO Pay, which the overhaul member might have been doing all along using the roll call vote that you so much have an issue with.