Bankruptcy

[TWU informer]

OK, lets say you are right, wont that be the case (MD-80) either way? What does BK have to do with the elimination of the MD-80s?

By the way AA loses around 500 mechanics per year, thats why they refused to let the line guys get in on the VBR. So at the rate the MD-80s are retired and replaced more than likely attrition would still outpace any resulting surpluss. Sure Tulsa will shrink for a while, as it already has, but I doubt we will see guys hitting the street. I would not count all those new hires as yes votes either.

Your 2000 number seems high, that would bring AA to just 14 M&R per aircraft, thats lower than UAL at 15 per aircraft.

And you dont think the youngest fleet would garner one less head per aircraft?
And I said that wouldnt be a permanent number, just until new aricraft go out of warranty.

So the number sounds about exact to me.

And you asked how many would be shed IN BK not because of BK.

 

[Mach85ER]

All I can say to that post is " WOW Are you shittin me"?
Yeah Mr Pilot, your pension is worthless why don't you throw it away.

The pilot pension is two parts, the A and the B plan.

The A plan is the years of service, final average pay over a few years and needs AA in business to collect the lump sum for the computed amount, or the annuity for the life of the pilot of which to collect, AA needs to be in business for that period. Most take the lump of the A plan for obvious reasons.

The B plan is 11% of salary earned from day one. Every paycheck it goes in to basically a big investment fund. Every dime is the pilot's even if AA folds tomorrow. I think it would go to an annuity if AA goes, BK, but not positive.

For the A plan, given the age of many AA pilots, the PBGC would cover a good part depending on the age. Even the 8 years since 2003 is a huge difference in what the payout is. AA knows this and if they have half a brain, would realize the threat of pension freezing isn't what it was then.

As I said, opportunities are available worldwide and even the US for pilots to equal their money, and we are just starting the squeeze for pilots worldwide. This may also create a problem for the AA with other employee groups since other work groups are competing basically nationwide, and the leverage to extract raises or even to prevent paycuts is far less. "Me too" clauses for raises might be alot tougher to pull off.

 

[FWAAA]

OK, lets say you are right, wont that be the case (MD-80) either way? What does BK have to do with the elimination of the MD-80s?

Bankruptcy would permit AA to reject the leases on the fuel and maintenance hogs, probably hastening their grounding.

By the way AA loses around 500 mechanics per year, thats why they refused to let the line guys get in on the VBR. So at the rate the MD-80s are retired and replaced more than likely attrition would still outpace any resulting surpluss. Sure Tulsa will shrink for a while, as it already has, but I doubt we will see guys hitting the street. I would not count all those new hires as yes votes either.

Your 2000 number seems high, that would bring AA to just 14 M&R per aircraft, thats lower than UAL at 15 per aircraft.

Your number of 15 M&R per aircraft at UAL is high. In the post below, I show the math - UAL has just 13.3 M&R per aircraft as it only employed 4,728 total M&R on 12/31/10:

http://airlineforums.com/topic/35870-twu-negotiationswhat/page__view__findpost__p__844323

AA employs substantially more M&R per aircraft than does UAL.

 

[Bob Owens]

And you dont think the youngest fleet would garner one less head per aircraft?
And I said that wouldnt be a permanent number, just until new aricraft go out of warranty.

So the number sounds about exact to me.

And you asked how many would be shed IN BK not because of BK.

13% of UALs expenses are for outsourced maintenance, thats seems like a lot more than three heads.

Semantics, again, either IN or Out of BK what would change? Either way as the new planes come and the 80s go away we would likely see a reduction in the number of mechanics (attrition driven) across the board but more in OH right?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bankruptcy would permit AA to reject the leases on the fuel and maintenance hogs, probably hastening their grounding.

Maybe, but where would all those passengers go. Flights continue to be full.

Your number of 15 M&R per aircraft at UAL is high. In the post below, I show the math - UAL has just 13.3 M&R per aircraft as it only employed 4,728 total M&R on 12/31/10:

5500 was the number from the press release, that probably includes facilities maintenance, or maybe UAL lkie AA has increased the M&R headcount by a couple of hundred in the 11 months you referenced. I included facilities in the AA number as well.

AA employs substantially more M&R per aircraft than does UAL.

AA has substantially more Aircraft than UAL.

 

[FWAAA]

13% of UALs expenses are for outsourced maintenance, thats seems like a lot more than three heads.

The obviously inflated number with no source links provided continues to persist.

 

[Bob Owens]

The obviously inflated number with no source links provided continues to persist.

Sent and posted link to page on other thread.

http://airlineforums.com/topic/35870-twu-negotiationswhat/page__st__4296

 

[TWU informer]

Bankruptcy would permit AA to reject the leases on the fuel and maintenance hogs, probably hastening their grounding.



Your number of 15 M&R per aircraft at UAL is high. In the post below, I show the math - UAL has just 13.3 M&R per aircraft as it only employed 4,728 total M&R on 12/31/10:

http://airlineforums.com/topic/35870-twu-negotiationswhat/page__view__findpost__p__844323

AA employs substantially more M&R per aircraft than does UAL.

Do your numbers per aircraft at AA include the over abundance of incompetent management planners, engineers, staff assistants, and contract cunsultants?

 

[TWU informer]

13% of UALs expenses are for outsourced maintenance, thats seems like a lot more than three heads.

Semantics, again, either IN or Out of BK what would change? Either way as the new planes come and the 80s go away we would likely see a reduction in the number of mechanics (attrition driven) across the board but more in OH right?

You have a valid point Bob, but I would like a chance a working on the new aircraft. And therefore labor cost will come into play.

I have no doubt you would like to price us right of the O/H market on these aircraft to reduce the O/H headcount numbers to give the line AMT the majority so you can have yours brother. I too plan to protect my turf and job.

 

[Bob Owens]

You have a valid point Bob, but I would like a chance a working on the new aircraft. And therefore labor cost will come into play.

I have no doubt you would like to price us right of the O/H market on these aircraft to reduce the O/H headcount numbers to give the line AMT the majority so you can have yours brother. I too plan to protect my turf and job.

So I guess you buy into the line that if Timco pays their guys $25/hr then you have to compete with that rate of pay? If that's how you feel fine, but don't accuse me of trying to sell you out, I've never told you what you should get, only that you need to take into account that we can't survive on wages that are low enough to make you feel secure.

If UAL outsources and spends more on OH than AA does, that's where that 13% figure comes into play and why FWAAA has such heartburn over it, then there is obviously a cost benefit to insourcing. The question is where is the crossover point where that's no longer the case and how close can we get to it? Ups told their guys the number was $40/ hr. So figure it's somewhere above that and below $50.

 

[Hopeful]

You have a valid point Bob, but I would like a chance a working on the new aircraft. And therefore labor cost will come into play.

I have no doubt you would like to price us right of the O/H market on these aircraft to reduce the O/H headcount numbers to give the line AMT the majority so you can have yours brother. I too plan to protect my turf and job.

I would be more concerned about the future of OH as far as the COMPANY is concernned. You are obsessing with what Bob Owens might or might not want. He is only ONE person.
You should be more aware about the TWU/AA partnership!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

You have a valid point Bob, but I would like a chance a working on the new aircraft. And therefore labor cost will come into play.

I have no doubt you would like to price us right of the O/H market on these aircraft to reduce the O/H headcount numbers to give the line AMT the majority so you can have yours brother. I too plan to protect my turf and job.

I dont think Bob or any of us "line guys" want to price you out of anything. You should vent your anger at places like Timco where your wages and benefits are far superior. While us "line guys" look at the line operations of UPS and Southwest where their wages and benefits are far superior. Do you understand the logic...

 

[TWU informer]

I dont think Bob or any of us "line guys" want to price you out of anything. You should vent your anger at places like Timco where your wages and benefits are far superior. While us "line guys" look at the line operations of UPS and Southwest where their wages and benefits are far superior. Do you understand the logic...

Sure I do, and since my wages are superior to TIMCO I voted YES
Do you understand that logic?
Funny when you guys blame Tulsa or Overhaul that is sound judgement, but when we vent back you come unglued.
You dont focus on TIMCO when venting, you focus on Tulsa and AA Overhaul.
I had nothing to do with creating this division, I am simple a victim of the market just as you are.
Problem is, you only focus on your section of the market, so I focus on mine to keep you from shafting me.


By the way, what have you gained so far following your logic?

Best I can tell the only change is now everyone is going to lose their prefunded retirement medical not just those under 50.
Great strategy but weak union. Even your own Union's proposals are not seeking UPS or Southwest wages for you. You are screwed.

You are entering into a fight without a unified group and self seeking gratification will doom your battle.
You will lose and in the end will blame me and my co-workers, and your TIMCO logic will be long forgotten and you wont be blaming them, and you know it.

I am one of the few trying to speak factual about our current demise. You and others don't want to face the truth or even hear it. So I become your enemy and source of frustration. Now on the other hand, if I talked liked most of you, as if we we are not facing a serious division in the union, and pretended we are going to fight and win, then I would be loved just like Bob. Screw that, I am not running for Office, he is. So bascially all you are hearing from him is WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. He has even admitted he caanot tell you everything under threat of removal, so he keeps preaching what everyone wants to hear, just like every other TWU elected official does.

Me on other hand, I DONT SEE THE BIG PICTURE, you know what I mean? "brother"

 

[nbmcg01]

Sure I do, and since my wages are superior to TIMCO I voted YES
Do you understand that logic?
Funny when you guys blame Tulsa or Overhaul that is sound judgement, but when we vent back you come unglued.
You dont focus on TIMCO when venting, you focus on Tulsa and AA Overhaul.
I had nothing to do with creating this division, I am simple a victim of the market just as you are.
Problem is, you only focus on your section of the market, so I focus on mine to keep you from shafting me.


By the way, what have you gained so far following your logic?

Best I can tell the only change is now everyone is going to lose their prefunded retirement medical not just those under 50.
Great strategy but weak union. Even your own Union's proposals are not seeking UPS or Southwest wages for you. You are screwed.

You are entering into a fight without a unified group and self seeking gratification will doom your battle.
You will lose and in the end will blame me and my co-workers, and your TIMCO logic will be long forgotten and you wont be blaming them, and you know it.

I am one of the few trying to speak factual about our current demise. You and others don't want to face the truth or even hear it. So I become your enemy and source of frustration. Now on the other hand, if I talked liked most of you, as if we we are not facing a serious division in the union, and pretended we are going to fight and win, then I would be loved just like Bob. Screw that, I am not running for Office, he is. So bascially all you are hearing from him is WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. He has even admitted he caanot tell you everything under threat of removal, so he keeps preaching what everyone wants to hear, just like every other TWU elected official does.

Me on other hand, I DONT SEE THE BIG PICTURE, you know what I mean? "brother"

On the great shrinking airline:

1. Do you think the probable bk is part of the picture for AA to be acquired?
2. Do you see AA as emerging as a small domestic carrier? Sold off or "merged" international?
3. Will all of the contracts be settled or is the company just concerned about the pilots?
4. Will the current AA employees be able to accept this new normal?

Having a moment of deja vu...

 

[Maark767]

On the great shrinking airline:

1. Do you think the probable bk is part of the picture for AA to be acquired?
2. Do you see AA as emerging as a small domestic carrier? Sold off or "merged" international?
3. Will all of the contracts be settled or is the company just concerned about the pilots?
4. Will the current AA employees be able to accept this new normal?

Having a moment of deja vu...

I'm so out of here if BK is in our future. NOT going to be part of this. It's been a great ride!