Bankruptcy

[FWAAA]

Isnt it funny how nearly all the self proclaimed "neutral observers" who post in behalf of the company choose to remain anonymous?

Posts on this website should be judged based on their content, and not on paranoid fantasies about the identity of the authors. The owners of the website appear to agree as they don't require that we post using our real names and they take seriously unauthorized attempts to out people. I'm certain some of you disagree.

All these pro-company people keep saying that we should accept the companys terms in order to avoid BK, but if BK is a real possibility where is the logic in agreeing to take money out of a trust fund thats safe in BK and turning over half those funds to a company thats at risk? Jacoban, FWAA, Overspeed, Eoleson? Anyone? Explain to us the benefit of removing funds from a trust thats safe in BK.

Not me. I vote for Ch 11. I'm fairly certain it's going to happen. About the retiree medical. Your contributions and interest thereon are certainly not at risk in bankruptcy. The company match, if not already in your account, might not be as protected. I think someone recently posted that the match is in a different account. None of that really matters, however, as the promise to provide retiree medical is dischargable in bankruptcy just like all other promises. So you get your money back plus interest and maybe even the match. In Ch 11, the company rids itself of all obligations related to retiree medical. AA will no longer have to maintain the trust and won't have to match anything. AA won't have to provide retiree medical to anyone, retired or not.

Bob,
Should AA file BK, no doubt the prefunding medical is history. But in BK do employees get the FULL refund?

I assume you get back your contributions plus interest, but I'm not certain. I'm not certain you get the matching amount.

The plan is on our website and here is how I read it.

The funds are in a trust held by JP Morgan. If the company terminates the plan we are entitled to all the funds in our accounts, that includes both our after tax contributions and the company match. We are to get our after tax contributions back but it has not been determined how we get our pretax company match back, it may stay in the plan to be used to buy benefits down the road or it could be refunded as well, but of course if refunded it would be subject to being taxed. So it may pay to leave the funds in the accounts held by JP Morgan instead of taking them out.

So its not clear how we get the match back or when but its clear that we dont just turn it over to the company for nothing in exchange. We either get retiree benefits or the funds.

So the company could terminate the plan outside Ch 11 and return all funds to the employees including the match? In bankruptcy, the terms of the plan (especially the part about the company's obligations) might evaporate. If the matching funds are not in your trust account, I doubt a bankruptcy court would order the debtor to refund money that isn't yet the employees' money. In any event, the amounts are small change. I would gladly trade a few thousand dollars in a trust account for a 50% pay raise, but I realize that the TWU isn't even seeking a raise that large.

 

[Jacobin777]

Yet it's extremely high for a CEO who has ran a company into the ground with billions in loses while CEO's of other airlines
have figured it out and have made their carriers profitable.

I know Jacob, it's labor!!

I'm sure Fannie and Freddie Mac would love to have Arpey on their payroll. :blink:

Other airlines have figured out how to how to become profitable via BK. AA probably would too if it filed for BK.

There are countless companies which "gone to 'ell" (chapter 7) and "management making out $ like a banshee". From protected pensions to insiders selling out. Its how the laws of publicly traded companies are governed. Whether its ethical or not is not even up for debate here. The fact is that is legal.

At least AA would still survive as an entity and people would be still employed and collecting a paycheck as well as pensions, etc.

Jacobin, why don't you fess up to who you really are? No successful, self employed business man is going to waste his time trolling on an airline employee BB the way you do. You show up out of the blue to this BB a few months back, and now - you know whats best for everybody. Coincidence, I doubt it. A casual observer can see, you act like you have a dog in this fight.

I've mentioned before, I've been posting on other websites for years. While I do know of this board for only about 12-18 months (courtesy of some other members here), I've been consistently posting the same thing over, and over again for years on other boards (primarily on airliners.net and flyertalk-same screen name).

My "dog" here is my passion for aviation. Looking at my posts on flyertalk would reveal my proclivity towards AA as about 760 of my 779 posts since 2006 are on AA's AAdvantage Program.

Most likely a contract negotiator or an underling of one......

Incorrect. <_<

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< ------- Bob, let's look at this. What are you paying for? The plan covers you, and your dependents, from date of retirement until the age 65. At which time you go on Medicare. Your AA insurance at that time becomes the secondary insurer.------- But, if Obamacare goes into effect in 2013, AA has informed us they will be terminating their coverage. -------- So, what is your prefunding buying you?-------An Insurance plan for you, and your family, from date of retirement, to age 65. And that is it! From that point on, you are on your own.------ Oh, yea! Obama will take care of you!!! :blink: ------- And may I add, at 65+ is when most people need it the most!!!

I thought the same thing till I read the plan again. Its on our website and there's more info on JetNet.

The plan changes but continues to cover you after 65. It drops from $300k to $50 k and acts a medigap insurance till you die but you have to opt for the standard plan only, no value or value plus. So medicare pays 80% and leaves you with 20%, this pays 80% of that 20%. If you chose the other plans you screw yourself, you lose the matching funds. I have not heard of them cancelling this coverage as its contractual, what they did say they will be cancelling is the supplimental insurance that was purchased seperately by many employees who were concerned about the $50k cap.

If you do not retire before 65 you get your contributions plus interest back, the matching funds stay in the plan and are used to pay for the medigap insurance. Its not great but its paid for and I see no point in giving it to the company.

 

[Bob Owens]

That's why I can't understand why this 55-65 gap insurance is such an issue. It will be gone for all anyway in short order.

Unless there's a "shooting" type of revolution in the USA where the Washington DC infestation is dragged outside to waiting gulliotines, the gutless Congress will let Obama's socialist/liberal/commie agenda stand so we can be equal to the serfs in Europe in order to further the agenda.

I look at the gap insurance issue as nothing more than a red herring to occupy our time while the union and company plots.

Well if retiree medical as we know it goes away because the company took it away the whole of all the accounts balances remain for us as individuals, in our individual accounts, to use to buy our benefits but if we give it away half of our account goes to the company to use to pay its committments to other workers, not us. Either way the company has to pay those committments but it can either come from their General Fund or your account. So would you rather keep your money in a BK safe trust or donate half of it to the company?

 

[Overspeed]

Well if retiree medical as we know it goes away because the company took it away the whole of all the accounts balances remain for us as individuals, in our individual accounts, to use to buy our benefits but if we give it away half of our account goes to the company to use to pay its committments to other workers, not us. Either way the company has to pay those committments but it can either come from their General Fund or your account. So would you rather keep your money in a BK safe trust or donate half of it to the company?

Well now that I know my pre-funding is safe, I am okay with going to BK now. When do we get released so we can strike and AA can file Chap 11? I'm ready.

 

[Buck]

Well now that I know my pre-funding is safe, I am okay with going to BK now. When do we get released so we can strike and AA can file Chap 11? I'm ready.

Not only are knowlegeable about the TWU and the industry in general you are funny. TWU and Strike in the same sentence.

 

[Vortilon]

Other airlines have figured out how to how to become profitable via BK. AA probably would too if it filed for BK.

There are countless companies which "gone to 'ell" (chapter 7) and "management making out $ like a banshee". From protected pensions to insiders selling out. Its how the laws of publicly traded companies are governed. Whether its ethical or not is not even up for debate here. The fact is that is legal.

At least AA would still survive as an entity and people would be still employed and collecting a paycheck as well as pensions, etc.




I've mentioned before, I've been posting on other websites for years. While I do know of this board for only about 12-18 months (courtesy of some other members here), I've been consistently posting the same thing over, and over again for years on other boards (primarily on airliners.net and flyertalk-same screen name).

My "dog" here is my passion for aviation. Looking at my posts on flyertalk would reveal my proclivity towards AA as about 760 of my 779 posts since 2006 are on AA's AAdvantage Program.




Incorrect. <_<

Well, isn't that special - you have a passion for aviation. While you can comfortably sit back as a casual observer, inserting your un-solicited two cents on our livilihoods - we are living this nightmare. Blaming employees is about as original as Al Sharpton playing the race card.

 

[Jacobin777]

Well, isn't that special - you have a passion for aviation. While you can comfortably sit back as a casual observer, inserting your un-solicited two cents on our livilihoods - we are living this nightmare. Blaming employees is about as original as Al Sharpton playing the race card.

Grow up buddy, its a public forum.

 

[Buck]

Grow up buddy, its a public forum.

I would be interested in knowing your background and what you do for a living? Your Education and where you have been employeed etc.?

 

[Jacobin777]

I would be interested in knowing your background and what you do for a living? Your Education and where you have been employeed etc.?

No offense Buck, but none are needed do discuss items relevant to the topic.

 

[Bob Owens]

No offense Buck, but none are needed do discuss items relevant to the topic.

Sure they are, thats why you dont want to discuss them. My guess is you are a randite and thus you dont do things unless it suits your needs. Why would an outsider spend such a great deal of time discussing subjects and trying to convince workers that they need to work for less unless it suits their self interests?

You are going to have Aviation Workers, Union Leaders, Airline management and related, investors or people working for investment firms and reporters spending any considerabble time on these threads. Thats pretty much it except for an occasional outsider who has a specific question. People who have a stake. Otherwise why waste time?

So outside of of the first two(generally speaking, sometimes the second is so closely aligned with management its hard to tell which side they are on) and reporters, everyone else has an interest in seeing wages erode because lower wages equals higher profits.

 

[Vortilon]

Grow up buddy, its a public forum.

Grow up? Are you kidding? Let me get this straight, you "Mr Passionate Aviation" want casually make random posts on this BB on topics that directly affect our careers. What did you think was gonna happen? We were all going to embrace you, and sing Kumbaya? You got pretty big balls coming on this website posting the crap you do, then crying victim when you're challenged. Go ahead and feel free to post; however, don't be surprised when you're challenged on your motives for being here!

 

[TWU informer]

No offense Buck, but none are needed do discuss items relevant to the topic.

Code For....."I'm not going to tell you".

And I bet there is a reason why!

 

[Jacobin777]

Sure they are, thats why you dont want to discuss them. My guess is you are a randite and thus you dont do things unless it suits your needs. Why would an outsider spend such a great deal of time discussing subjects and trying to convince workers that they need to work for less unless it suits their self interests?

You are going to have Aviation Workers, Union Leaders, Airline management and related, investors or people working for investment firms and reporters spending any considerabble time on these threads. Thats pretty much it except for an occasional outsider who has a specific question. People who have a stake. Otherwise why waste time?

So outside of of the first two(generally speaking, sometimes the second is so closely aligned with management its hard to tell which side they are on) and reporters, everyone else has an interest in seeing wages erode because lower wages equals higher profits.

My guess is you are quite clueless about me [sic].

A website such as airliners.net have hundreds if not thousands of users with tens of thousands of posts. Are you telling me that >90% (heck, even >50%) of the posts there isn't but to discuss nothing more than aviation in general?

There are hundreds, if not thousands of other message boards where the vast majority of posts are nothing more than opinions, etc. What personal stake do they have??

Point being, Airlineforums.com is just one of many forums to post thoughts, opinions, ideas, etc.

I'm not trying to convince or preach to anyone, but as someone who has been in the investment field for 15+ years, I do have a good deal of knowledge of how stock, balance sheets, debt, etc. affects a company.

Grow up? Are you kidding? Let me get this straight, you "Mr Passionate Aviation" want casually make random posts on this BB on topics that directly affect our careers. What did you think was gonna happen? We were all going to embrace you, and sing Kumbaya? You got pretty big balls coming on this website posting the crap you do, then crying victim when you're challenged. Go ahead and feel free to post; however, don't be surprised when you're challenged on your motives for being here!

"Crying victim"? Suuuuuuure....

As I've mentioned above, I neither preach nor convince. What you want to believe buddy is your choice. If you want to believe the earth is flat and the moon is made from Swiss-cheese, well that's your right and your prerogative. It certainly doesn't change the facts one bit however.

I've mentioned on multiple occasions why I post here and I've also stated above my background.

 

[737823]

Sure they are, thats why you dont want to discuss them. My guess is you are a randite and thus you dont do things unless it suits your needs. Why would an outsider spend such a great deal of time discussing subjects and trying to convince workers that they need to work for less unless it suits their self interests?

You are going to have Aviation Workers, Union Leaders, Airline management and related, investors or people working for investment firms and reporters spending any considerabble time on these threads. Thats pretty much it except for an occasional outsider who has a specific question. People who have a stake. Otherwise why waste time?

So outside of of the first two(generally speaking, sometimes the second is so closely aligned with management its hard to tell which side they are on) and reporters, everyone else has an interest in seeing wages erode because lower wages equals higher profits.

I don't have an interest in AA negotiations except the fact that I fly AA nearly every week and would like to see changes to work rules and productivity. It may be hard for you to imagine but some of us outsiders in the financial services community enjoy traveling and specifically the airline industry.

Josh