Bankruptcy

[eolesen]

Sorry pal, but simply taking an opinion form another aviation forum is no proof at all... My local peon L4 and L5's have received increases...

Did they receive merit increases, or did the company raise the minimum for the L4's? Buck brought this up a couple days ago...

If AA can't find people at the minimum, they have to raise the minimum. If there were peon L4's earning less than the new minimum, they get an "increase" to the new minimum, just like tens of thousands of McDonald's employees got "increases" when Obummer raised the federal minimum wage...

And if there were L5's now earning less than the L4's, they probably had to reset the L5 payscale, too.

 

[Jacobin777]

How does one attract top talent when it comes to the mechanics?

There are probably various metrics. That being said, its a bit more difficult as mechanics for lack of a better term are more "expendable". I understand its sort of the "short end of the stick" but that is how things are. I'm sure many mechanics are intelligent, skillful and resourceful enough to manage in case of a lay-off or don't like their job.

What do you have the hots for FWAAA? What's the infatuation with him?
What is this? THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO FWAAA?
Try doing your own research and not hanging on to every opinion of someone else!

Lets see, I quoted him twice and you have to make stupid and inane comments. Go figure.

Not only that, I provided my own information in the previous post, I guess you conveniently didn't mention that - but why let facts get in the way?

Finally, you have provided absolutely NO proof of you claims. In other words, you have ZERO credibility.

 

[Hopeful]

There are probably various metrics. That being said, its a bit more difficult as mechanics for lack of a better term are more "expendable". I understand its sort of the "short end of the stick" but that is how things are. I'm sure many mechanics are intelligent, skillful and resourceful enough to manage in case of a lay-off or don't like their job.



Lets see, I quoted him twice and you have to make stupid and inane comments. Go figure.

Not only that, I provided my own information in the previous post, I guess you conveniently didn't mention that - but why let facts get in the way?

Finally, you have provided absolutely NO proof of you claims. In other words, you have ZERO credibility.

As long as they receive ANY PUP pay, ANY,,,they are continuing to get an increase..No matter how small or how large... THEIR PAIN WAS SHORTLIVED....
Also YOU gave NO proof...Just FWAAA opinions! Are you telling me ARPEY"S pay wasnt increased? Didn't they raise it when Horton returned to AMR and demanded more than ARPEY? Didn't the BOD inccrease ARPEY"S pay in response?
Did NOT Horton have his pay raised when he returned?

YOUR credibility is riding on the back of FWAAA!

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Finally, you have provided absolutely NO proof of you claims. In other words, you have ZERO credibility.

Let's talk about credibility for a second.

You, Josh and FWAAA claim to not be employed by AMR yet your posts here amount to no more than the actions of Kapos herding prisoners to slaughter.

No, we're not really "prisoners" but you can spare me the "you can leave anytime" line.

You have no vested interest in this company that you will admit to so who are you working for? You supposedly work for a company that pays you well - why tell us to take less?

One being told they have "ZERO credibility" by another who hides in shadows and anonymity is hardly something to be concerned about.

 

[AANOTOK]

Another 52 week low. $1.62

Me thinks it will happen sooner rather than later. Regardless of how negotiations turn out with ALL workgroups!

 

[Flying low]

Another 52 week low. $1.62

Me thinks it will happen sooner rather than later. Regardless of how negotiations turn out with ALL workgroups!

Wasn't the whole market down due to whats happening in Europe and our own "super committee" not being able to agree on anything?

 

[Jacobin777]

As long as they receive ANY PUP pay, ANY,,,they are continuing to get an increase..No matter how small or how large... THEIR PAIN WAS SHORTLIVED....
Also YOU gave NO proof...Just FWAAA opinions! Are you telling me ARPEY"S pay wasnt increased? Didn't they raise it when Horton returned to AMR and demanded more than ARPEY? Didn't the BOD inccrease ARPEY"S pay in response?
Did NOT Horton have his pay raised when he returned?

You talked about management getting bonuses and screwing employees in the interim. I mentioned how Arpey and other executive pay is structured. Apey has on a couple of occasions not taken a bonus as well.

Arpey's salary is much lower than a company the size & number of employees which AA has. Yes, Arpey's salary has gone up, but its still well below that of Cartey's 8 years ago!

Comparing to how your pay should be an how executive pay should be is somewhat laughable anyway..

YOUR credibility is riding on the back of FWAAA!

What the 'ell is this then?

Arpey (amongst others such as Horton, Reding, etc.) did receive stock option based compensation (which for the umpteenth time, was approved by the unions) which he (they) sold in 2007 for the majority of his (their) compensation. What we don't know (at least I don't), at what prices did he (they) received those stock options. Maybe it was at $0/share. Regardless, AA was profitable IIRC only in 1 year of the past 10 years and that was the year they sold.

Also, executive-based compensation is completely legal as a "standard method" to attract top talent. Maybe you have a problem calling Arpey et.al "top talent", but that is rather irrelevant. If you have a problem with the system, then you should take that up with you senator and/or representative. Right now, Arpey et.al do own tens of thousands of options which are practically worthless.

Let's talk about credibility for a second.

You, Josh and FWAAA claim to not be employed by AMR yet your posts here amount to no more than the actions of Kapos herding prisoners to slaughter.

No, we're not really "prisoners" but you can spare me the "you can leave anytime" line.

You have no vested interest in this company that you will admit to so who are you working for? You supposedly work for a company that pays you well - why tell us to take less?

One being told they have "ZERO credibility" by another who hides in shadows and anonymity is hardly something to be concerned about.

Maybe its because our posts are realistic and don't b.s. around. There is no spin here.

I have my own company (I've mentioned a number of times here that I'm self-employed). When I started my company 9-10 years ago, I worked for practically free of charge for almost a year. Scrapping whatever I can to pay the bills and make ends meet.

I don't hind anything from anyone (relatively speaking). I've mentioned a number of times what my views are. I've also showed links, ect. to prove my points. If you don't want to believe 'em, well, that's your prerogative and certainly your right. Unfortunately, it doesn't change the facts (or situations) for many here.

 

[AANOTOK]

Arpey's salary is much lower than a company the size & number of employees which AA has. Yes, Arpey's salary has gone up, but its still well below that of Cartey's 8 years ago!

Yet it's extremely high for a CEO who has ran a company into the ground with billions in loses while CEO's of other airlines
have figured it out and have made their carriers profitable.

I know Jacob, it's labor!!

I'm sure Fannie and Freddie Mac would love to have Arpey on their payroll. :blink:

 

[Vortilon]

You talked about management getting bonuses and screwing employees in the interim. I mentioned how Arpey and other executive pay is structured. Apey has on a couple of occasions not taken a bonus as well.

Arpey's salary is much lower than a company the size & number of employees which AA has. Yes, Arpey's salary has gone up, but its still well below that of Cartey's 8 years ago!

Comparing to how your pay should be an how executive pay should be is somewhat laughable anyway..




What the 'ell is this then?









Maybe its because our posts are realistic and don't b.s. around. There is no spin here.

I have my own company (I've mentioned a number of times here that I'm self-employed). When I started my company 9-10 years ago, I worked for practically free of charge for almost a year. Scrapping whatever I can to pay the bills and make ends meet.

I don't hind anything from anyone (relatively speaking). I've mentioned a number of times what my views are. I've also showed links, ect. to prove my points. If you don't want to believe 'em, well, that's your prerogative and certainly your right. Unfortunately, it doesn't change the facts (or situations) for many here.

Jacobin, why don't you fess up to who you really are? No successful, self employed business man is going to waste his time trolling on an airline employee BB the way you do. You show up out of the blue to this BB a few months back, and now - you know whats best for everybody. Coincidence, I doubt it. A casual observer can see, you act like you have a dog in this fight.

 

[Buck]

Jacobin, why don't you fess up to who you really are? No successful, self employed business man is going to waste his time trolling on an airline employee BB the way you do. You show up out of the blue to this BB a few months back, and now - you know whats best for everybody. Coincidence, I doubt it. A casual observer can see, you act like you have a dog in this fight.

Most likely a contract negotiator or an underling of one......

 

[Bob Owens]

Jacobin, why don't you fess up to who you really are? No successful, self employed business man is going to waste his time trolling on an airline employee BB the way you do. You show up out of the blue to this BB a few months back, and now - you know whats best for everybody. Coincidence, I doubt it. A casual observer can see, you act like you have a dog in this fight.

Isnt it funny how nearly all the self proclaimed "neutral observers" who post in behalf of the company choose to remain anonymous?

I hear management is putting the hard sell of the Fleet TA. Telling these guys about how they will be getting their prefunding back-but leaving out that the company is taking half of it and they may end up spending up to $90,000 for coverage when they retire that they they are giving away in exchange for an eight year deal with no retro, loads of concesions and only a 9% increase that in real terms (once inflation is factored in) works out to be a 15% paycut. Management held info meetings but nobody showed so they went man to man trying to sell this loser of a deal. Now they are promising a Thanksgiving spread if they will come and listen. Thats OK because I think the harder they push the more NO votes they will get. Eat their food, and VOTE NO.

Last time I looked the Vote NO video had over 11000 hits.

All these pro-company people keep saying that we should accept the companys terms in order to avoid BK, but if BK is a real possibility where is the logic in agreeing to take money out of a trust fund thats safe in BK and turning over half those funds to a company thats at risk? Jacoban, FWAA, Overspeed, Eoleson? Anyone? Explain to us the benefit of removing funds from a trust thats safe in BK.

 

[Hopeful]

Bob,
Should AA file BK, no doubt the prefunding medical is history. But in BK do employees get the FULL refund?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
Should AA file BK, no doubt the prefunding medical is history. But in BK do employees get the FULL refund?

The plan is on our website and here is how I read it.

The funds are in a trust held by JP Morgan. If the company terminates the plan we are entitled to all the funds in our accounts, that includes both our after tax contributions and the company match. We are to get our after tax contributions back but it has not been determined how we get our pretax company match back, it may stay in the plan to be used to buy benefits down the road or it could be refunded as well, but of course if refunded it would be subject to being taxed. So it may pay to leave the funds in the accounts held by JP Morgan instead of taking them out.

So its not clear how we get the match back or when but its clear that we dont just turn it over to the company for nothing in exchange. We either get retiree benefits or the funds.

The company is just being exceptionally greedy here. Under the current plan they eventually get all the money back but we in exchange get Retiree Medical Coverage for life. If you recall in the TA they wanted our contributions in exchange for "credits" as well, credits that would likely dissapear in BK (along with both our after tax contributions and the match).They agreed to put matching funds in order to keep the concession back in 1992, and those funds only dont go back if the company decides to no longer provide a prefunded retiree medical. They want to not only get out of providing us the benefit but also take back the matching funds which were put in there specifically in case the company ever decided to terminate providing us prefunded retiree medical. You have to remember at the time most of our peers recieved their retiree medical at no charge when they retired and did not have to prefund either. AA enjoyed a concession that not of their peers had, plus they could hide money here during the profitable 1990s. Now they want to wind the clock back 20 years and take away something that was part of our compensation, defferred compensation. Its basically a 20 year retro concession for active workers and once we are out of the plan how likely is it that they will keep providing benefits to current retirees?

The real kicker is that UAL, which lost their retiree medical in BK is being offered an alternative, the same plan as Continental, where they use their sick time to buy retiree medical but they will only be charged 11 hours per month instead of 20 and they get 12 sick days per year instead of 8. Even if we were offered the same exact plan it still would not be equal because for the last 25 years that I've been here we got less sick time than UAL or CAL. When we got 10 they got 12, then we went to 5. Plus we have a lower max bank. So even if things had stayed the same our peers would have had 300 sick days while we would have only have 250, the concession of 2003 knocked that down to around 220 days or around 640 hours less and it would cost me 132 more hours per year for coverage.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- Bob, let's look at this. What are you paying for? The plan covers you, and your dependents, from date of retirement until the age 65. At which time you go on Medicare. Your AA insurance at that time becomes the secondary insurer.------- But, if Obamacare goes into effect in 2013, AA has informed us they will be terminating their coverage. -------- So, what is your prefunding buying you?-------An Insurance plan for you, and your family, from date of retirement, to age 65. And that is it! From that point on, you are on your own.------ Oh, yea! Obama will take care of you!!! :blink: ------- And may I add, at 65+ is when most people need it the most!!!

 

[Frank Szabo]

<_< ------- Bob, let's look at this. What are you paying for? The plan covers you, and your dependents, from date of retirement until the age 65. At which time you go on Medicare. Your AA insurance at that time becomes the secondary insurer.------- But, if Obamacare goes into effect in 2013, AA has informed us they will be terminating their coverage. -------- So, what is your prefunding buying you?-------An Insurance plan for you, and your family, from date of retirement, to age 65. And that is it! From that point on, you are on your own.------ Oh, yea! Obama will take care of you!!! :blink: ------- And may I add, at 65+ is when most people need it the most!!!

That's why I can't understand why this 55-65 gap insurance is such an issue. It will be gone for all anyway in short order.

Unless there's a "shooting" type of revolution in the USA where the Washington DC infestation is dragged outside to waiting gulliotines, the gutless Congress will let Obama's socialist/liberal/commie agenda stand so we can be equal to the serfs in Europe in order to further the agenda.

I look at the gap insurance issue as nothing more than a red herring to occupy our time while the union and company plots.