August/September 2013 Fleet Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

AS ramp and stores has 600 people and the top out for ramp is $22.52. This is an apples to oranges comparison based on how many employees are covered.

Brother, the $22.52 rate was the previous contract. You need to update things. They just got another pay raise this past June that brought them up to the $23.43 rate. The 2014 rate goes up to around $23.80.

My only error was that the lead premium was not $1.25. The leads actually got another quarter bump to put them up at $1.50. I didn't even include all the geographical differentials. Northern cali stations get an additional $2 buck an hour close to $26 [SFO, OAK, SJU] anyone working in Alaska gets almost $27 an hour.

I also disagree with you that it's apples and oranges. Yes, it is a small airline [8th biggest] but that should mean that the US AIRWAYS brothers and sisters get plenty more working for the 5th biggest airline and soon to be biggest airline. Besides, some of the NC were waffling a couple months ago talking about how negotiating for the 5th biggest airline isn't as strong as the biggest airline. What about the 8th? Shaking my head. Always an excuse. Sheesh.

We are counting on you Prez to know how much other rampers make at other airlines, especially IAM rates, so I'm a bit shocked you were not researched to know how much rampers make at smaller airlines. Makes me wonder what you guys are negotiating. Also, I don't think it was wise for you to publicly discount this, since management reads this page. Telegraphing to management that you don't recognize what rampers make at a smaller airline is just silly. IMO, the real 'apples and oranges' are the NC team members comparing the reality of US AIRWAYS to a bankrupt AMR contract.

Of course, if you are asking for much much more than what tiny Alaska pays rampers, then I understand. Otherwise I would expect the NC to stop focusing on AMR's bankrupt contract [the true apples and oranges]that AH wants to voodoo you guys on, and start focusing in on the hundreds of millions of dollars that US AIRWAYS is set to announce next week.

US AIRWAYS is the most profitable airline. Beat Southwest by over one hundred million last year. My hunch is that US AIRWAYS will remain the most profitable airline in the world. I personally don't give a rats ass if it's the 5th biggest or biggest, it's all about how profitable it is and that is where our true job security lies.

Anything south of the total compensation and scope of where Southwest is at in their contract would be a disappointment for me. Most important is scope because the US AIRWAYS scope sucks and most of us are tired of the drop dead dates that don't do squat. I hope you guys hold your position and don't get antsy and bring back junk like the eboard did when they panicked and brought back the anti labor United ta. Every station we currently represent folks at needs to be covered and grandfathered just as well as a class 1 station. Anything less is a scandal.

At any rate, I will be doing a comparison from a handful of airlines so our members are fully informed.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Also, i hope the nc is well researched on the grandfather agreement of the 12 small stations at alaska. There are grandfather agreements in various contracts. It makes absolutely no sense at all for our members and all remaining stations to not have real scope. Im not talking that BS that our union eboard approved at united where job protection meant contracting out and aborting union jobs and then asking our members to move. Nope, im talking s.c.o.p.e

 

[john john]

AS ramp and stores has 600 people and the top out for ramp is $22.52. This is an apples to oranges comparison based on how many employees are covered.

What are the size comparison of AS –vs- US and the ratio of insource –vs.- outsource of the two airlines

 

[737823]

Also, i hope the nc is well researched on the grandfather agreement of the 12 small stations at alaska. There are grandfather agreements in various contracts. It makes absolutely no sense at all for our members and all remaining stations to not have real scope. Im not talking that BS that our union eboard approved at united where job protection meant contracting out and aborting union jobs and then asking our members to move. Nope, im talking s.c.o.p.e

Tim going forward what improvements will there be to UA scope? Instead of 7 stations will they have, say 10? AA and UA have made clear they intend to outsource most stations aside from hubs. Will they counter with ready reserve? I hope they don't go to bottom feeders and staff the stations with idiots who can only issue a boadinf pass ans check a bag but are clueless about ticketing and policies/procedures. I ask because the UA T/A has implications for US. Do Rich Delaney, Ira Levy, Sito, etc also negotiate the US agreeement? If so it probably will be a similar concessionary agreement.

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

I thought AS dumped their Fleet employees about 5-8 years ago.

I stand corrected:
http://www.goiam.org...y-new-contract-

I believe it was in sea i do remember reading it and seein it on the news but i do not recall if it affected any other city of theirs but i do remember it was sea and i believe the union raised cane about it

 

[P. REZ]

Brother, the $22.52 rate was the previous contract. You need to update things. They just got another pay raise this past June that brought them up to the $23.43 rate. The 2014 rate goes up to around $23.80.

My only error was that the lead premium was not $1.25. The leads actually got another quarter bump to put them up at $1.50. I didn't even include all the geographical differentials. Northern cali stations get an additional $2 buck an hour close to $26 [SFO, OAK, SJU] anyone working in Alaska gets almost $27 an hour.

I also disagree with you that it's apples and oranges. Yes, it is a small airline [8th biggest] but that should mean that the US AIRWAYS brothers and sisters get plenty more working for the 5th biggest airline and soon to be biggest airline. Besides, some of the NC were waffling a couple months ago talking about how negotiating for the 5th biggest airline isn't as strong as the biggest airline. What about the 8th? Shaking my head. Always an excuse. Sheesh.

We are counting on you Prez to know how much other rampers make at other airlines, especially IAM rates, so I'm a bit shocked you were not researched to know how much rampers make at smaller airlines. Makes me wonder what you guys are negotiating. Also, I don't think it was wise for you to publicly discount this, since management reads this page. Telegraphing to management that you don't recognize what rampers make at a smaller airline is just silly. IMO, the real 'apples and oranges' are the NC team members comparing the reality of US AIRWAYS to a bankrupt AMR contract.

Of course, if you are asking for much much more than what tiny Alaska pays rampers, then I understand. Otherwise I would expect the NC to stop focusing on AMR's bankrupt contract [the true apples and oranges]that AH wants to voodoo you guys on, and start focusing in on the hundreds of millions of dollars that US AIRWAYS is set to announce next week.

US AIRWAYS is the most profitable airline. Beat Southwest by over one hundred million last year. My hunch is that US AIRWAYS will remain the most profitable airline in the world. I personally don't give a rats ass if it's the 5th biggest or biggest, it's all about how profitable it is and that is where our true job security lies.

Anything south of the total compensation and scope of where Southwest is at in their contract would be a disappointment for me. Most important is scope because the US AIRWAYS scope sucks and most of us are tired of the drop dead dates that don't do squat. I hope you guys hold your position and don't get antsy and bring back junk like the eboard did when they panicked and brought back the anti labor United ta. Every station we currently represent folks at needs to be covered and grandfathered just as well as a class 1 station. Anything less is a scandal.

At any rate, I will be doing a comparison from a handful of airlines so our members are fully informed.

Tim,

I pulled the AS ramp and stores contract right off of 142 website bro. I missed the 2 raises. Quit being paranoid and political Tim, my comment was that it was an apple to orange comparison and it is. Their scope is BS and I don't want to compare us to them. My opinion is that we should come out of negotiations with a better contract than bankrupt AA, PERIOD. We are not the 5th largest airline as of September and our wages and benefits should reflect that we are very profitable and now the largest airline.

P.Rez

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim going forward what improvements will there be to UA scope? Instead of 7 stations will they have, say 10? AA and UA have made clear they intend to outsource most stations aside from hubs. Will they counter with ready reserve? I hope they don't go to bottom feeders and staff the stations with idiots who can only issue a boadinf pass ans check a bag but are clueless about ticketing and policies/procedures. I ask because the UA T/A has implications for US. Do Rich Delaney, Ira Levy, Sito, etc also negotiate the US agreeement? If so it probably will be a similar concessionary agreement.

Josh

Lol. Not sure Josh but I hope they finally listen to the membership and get more scope instead of aborting so many union jobs. It's not fair to the membership. Delaney, levy, and Sito are scabs who are anti labor and support Corporate greed. None of them give a rip about labor, much less the IAM. All personal greed.
That was confirmed with the United ta.

Delaney is chief negotiator for the US AIRWAYS talks but I'm hoping he and his team may have learned that workers like myself get nasty angry at piss clam ta's and will mobilize and shove such anti labor contracts up his rat arse.

I can tell you this much, our NC already struck out by having its high bid being a 10% wage increase that pretty much mimics the low wages at the bankrupt AMR contract, but maybe there is a chance they are asking for greater benefits and much better scope....time will tell. Hope remains!

 

[robbedagain]

definitely agree with you p rez and sept is almost right around the corner...

 

[Kev3188]

I also like the "Retirement Choice Option" in the Alaska Contract. I think a similar program should be set up by our NC. Our members have a contribution going into the IAMPF and they also have a 401k but no company contribution going into it. Any retirement enhancement ought to engage the 401k so that all 3 prongs of retirement could be achived and the risk of another IAM pension cut would be less.

ARTICLE 23, PENSION PLAN 1 2 A. COPS employees hired before July 19, 2006: 3 4 COPS employees hired before July 19, 2006 will be given the 5 opportunity to choose between the following options during a 6 “Retirement Choice Program” election period offered to eligible 7 employees during 2007. 8 9 1. Remaining with (and accruing future service under) the 10 current COPS Retirement Program, including participation in the 11 Retirement Plan for COPS Employees, and the current matching 12 provisions under the COPS, MRP, Dispatch 401(k) Plan providing a 13 50% company matching contribution (in Alaska Air Group stock) of 14 up to the first 6% of participant’s pre-tax contributions (maximum 15 company matching contribution is 3% of eligible compensation); or 16 17 2. Freezing participation in the Retirement Plan for COPS 18 Employees as of December 31, 2007 and becoming eligible for an 19 enhanced company contribution under the COPS/MRP/Dispatch 401 20 (k) plan beginning January 1, 2008 that will provide a company 21 contribution of 4% of eligible compensation in cash plus 50% 22 company matching contributions in cash of up to the first 4% of 23 participant’s pre-tax contributions (maximum company contribution, 24 including match, is 6% of eligible compensation). Participants who 25 choose this option will receive no additional credited service in the 26 COPS Retirement Plan after December 31, 2007.

I've been saying this for awhile now. Employee choice is HUGE.

AS ramp and stores has 600 people and the top out for ramp is $22.52. This is an apples to oranges comparison based on how many employees are covered.

Maybe, but one could also see it as an apples to apples agreement based on both carriers being IAM rep'ed. If nothing else, people should see what works/what doesn't in the AS agreement, and work to apply it as US.

Furthermore, I don't speak for Tim, but I'm guessing part of his point of posting parts of AS' agreement is to refute AH's crying poor since US is the "5th largest carrier."

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,

I pulled the AS ramp and stores contract right off of 142 website bro. I missed the 2 raises. Quit being paranoid and political Tim, my comment was that it was an apple to orange comparison and it is. Their scope is BS and I don't want to compare us to them. My opinion is that we should come out of negotiations with a better contract than bankrupt AA, PERIOD. We are not the 5th largest airline as of September and our wages and benefits should reflect that we are very profitable and now the largest airline.

P.Rez

Prez, I tend to get paranoid when I have to correct our own negotiators over such important matters as industry contracts. That United TA made me super paranoid. Yes, the AS contract is significant as it demonstrates the '8th biggest airline' ramp wages/benefits and can be used as an argumental and reasonable baseline that the US AIRWAYS rampers deserve way more as the 'biggest airline' or '5th biggest'. lol

At any rate, Although the AS scope does suck, but it isn't much worse than US AIRWAYS scope which only protects 10 stations. Of note, is the 'grandfather language' that gives scope protections to ten specific small stations. It would be nice to get grandfather language to protect the smaller US AIRWAYS stations. In fact, I would expect our NC not to sign anything that doesn't protect all current stations with real scope. No 'drop dead dates' in any final ta. And please, don't lose that scope definition of '69 seat planes'. No hurry in talks.

And, of course you should come out with something better than a recent bankrupt contract. Much Much better indeed! Hell, some NC members are falsely even saying that the current US AIRWAYS contract is already better.

As an aside, if AS, WN, CWA are 'oranges', exactly what 'apples to apples' contracts are you guys comparing with?

 

[Tim Nelson]

I've been saying this for awhile now. Employee choice is HUGE.





Maybe, but one could also see it as an apples to apples agreement based on both carriers being IAM rep'ed. If nothing else, people should see what works/what doesn't in the AS agreement, and work to apply it as US.

Furthermore, I don't speak for Tim, but I'm guessing part of his point of posting parts of AS' agreement is to refute AH's crying poor since US is the "5th largest carrier."

I post things to educate the members. Unfortunately, the IAM only post AH letter. Most of our members are ignorant on what other airline rampers make, etc., and our union has failed to educate. Our union has failed to educate also on the leverage of section 6 and were previously talking nonsense about having more leverage in transition talks. LMAO. Things are further complicated when the IAM leaders get defensive every time I post such information.

In fact, they always have an excuse and sound just like management. When I posted Southwest, they said that is a different sorta airline. I post a CWA comparison and they say that's a different craft, even though it's right on US AIRWAYS property. I post the AMR contract and they say the US AIRWAYS contract is already better [LMAO]. I post AS and they say, 'they only have 600 IAM members'. Cripes, I can actually hear AH. What apples are they comparing to, the ones that AH brings and sets on the table?

 

[Kev3188]

I post things to educate the members. Unfortunately, the IAM only post AH letter. Most of our members are ignorant on what other airline rampers make, etc., and our union has failed to educate. Our union has failed to educate also on the leverage of section 6 and were previously talking nonsense about having more leverage in transition talks. LMAO. Things are further complicated when the IAM leaders get defensive every time I post such information.

Nothing more dangerous than an educated union member...

I think they get defensive when people question the status quo because it's a threat to their empire building. I see it as proof that the top-down model for labor is no longer relevant...

 

[Tim Nelson]

Being an industry labor activist, it really bothers me when they say such things as AS to US are "apples to oranges". They aren't. The AS is very significant and can be logically and reasonably be used as an argumental baseline that the US AIRWAYS rampers ought to get far far greater wage/benefit/scope than AS does as the 8th biggest airline.

Until corrected, the NC were arguing that they were only negotiating as the "5th Biggest" airline and would have such greater leverage as the "Biggest airline". Delaney instructed them of this line of reasoning, but we smashed it down on here. Also, when they discount the Southwest agreement as 'apples and oranges' it makes AH smile. I was shocked when they discounted the US AIRWAYS customer service agreement as 'apples and oranges' as well. It seems like the only apple on the negotiating table is the one AH placed on it that reads "Bankrupt AMR contract". THAT is truly an apples and oranges due to that contract being a construction in bankruptcy where AMR was losing $2 billion a year. Thus, my question to Prez, 'exactly what apples are we comparing to then?"

 

[P. REZ]

Being an industry labor activist, it really bothers me when they say such things as AS to US are "apples to oranges". They aren't. The AS is very significant and can be logically and reasonably be used as an argumental baseline that the US AIRWAYS rampers ought to get far far greater wage/benefit/scope than AS does as the 8th biggest airline.

Until corrected, the NC were arguing that they were only negotiating as the "5th Biggest" airline and would have such greater leverage as the "Biggest airline". Delaney instructed them of this line of reasoning, but we smashed it down on here. Also, when they discount the Southwest agreement as 'apples and oranges' it makes AH smile. I was shocked when they discounted the US AIRWAYS customer service agreement as 'apples and oranges' as well. It seems like the only apple on the negotiating table is the one AH placed on it that reads "Bankrupt AMR contract". THAT is truly an apples and oranges due to that contract being a construction in bankruptcy where AMR was losing $2 billion a year. Thus, my question to Prez, 'exactly what apples are we comparing to then?"

Tim,

Calm down bro, I think comparing us to PAX service is just fine. I also have no problem comparing us to SW, UA and DL. The days of this Company saying poor us, we can't compete are over in my book. The Company offered us garbage and I have stated that in PHX to everyone willing to listen.

P. Rez

 

[Tim Nelson]

Cool. I was getting late night heartburn. Much better now prez after getting a few donuts