April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[nevergiveup]

Legal Argument
A. McCaskill-Bond does not apply to the 2005 US Airways-America West merger.
As a preliminary matter, there are three reasons that McCaskill-Bond does not apply to the 2005 US Airways-America West merger and does not provide a process by which USAPA can legitimately disregard the Nicolau Award. First, McCaskill-Bond disclaims applying to airline mergers that occurred prior to December 26, 2007. 49 U.S.C. § 42112, note, § 117© (“This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act [Dec. 26, 2007].&rdquo😉. Not only did the US Airways-America West merger occur long before that date, but by that date Airways had already accepted the Nicolau Award seniority list. (Doc. 14- 1 at App. 130, Doug Parker, Letter to US Airways Pilots (Dec. 20, 2007).)

Would you settle for cheeze and cookies?

 

[snapthis]

Would you settle for cheeze and cookies?

I'll take some more of that East Whine after this is over and done with.

 

[Black Swan]

It looks like the Company and the Judge see the M/Bond process as the way out. If the West is an interested party, then they can dispute whatever seniority list that USAPA hands over to the APA. That dispute will be solved by final and binding arbitration.

For now the West needs to bargain. That doesn't mean starting with the Nicolau and then moving away from it, just some different result than the Nicolau. My suggestion is to take the 2007 lists and remove any furloughed pilot that bypassed recall and is gone. On the Nicolau list the first AWA pilot is around 520. What you offer is to move that pilot up XX numbers towards the top. Also, you will select XX pilots that were on furlough as of the merger and move them into the "active" ratio. So now you have a pin at the top of the list and the bottom of the list. Do a straight ratio from there. Make USAPA pick the XX number and put the ball in their court. Right now, USAPA wants to box in the AOL and force them to negotiate only for the conditions and restrictions that accompany a date of hire list. In this offer you box in USAPA into making a choice on your turf.

We all know that USAPA is internally incapable of making any tough decision so the whole point is moot. However, AOL should present a serious proposal to USAPA that is not the Nicolau award, again it doesn't have to be a concession from the Nicolau, just different. If they demonstrate serious bargaining, then the judge will most likely put them into the M/Bond process and from there it is a slam dunk that the arbitration result will be the previous arbitration result, the Nicolau award.

It is a tortured path, but the judge is handing AOL a ticket to resolution, they just have to bargain first to get there.

I don't think so. They had numerous opportunities to come off the Nic
They assumed the risk. Taking that risk does not afford them a re negotiating stance. It does not work that way. They were approached by Cleary, and Hummel. They passed.
Your idea is merely a suggestion, the judge said the Nicolau does not have to be used.
The West and you had this wrong the entire time.
Every other labor group in the AWA US merger has gone DOH. Leonidas is the outlier. They will soon be offered DOH with healthy c&r s. my advice would be to accept it and move on. They have exhausted all legal remedies.

 

[Black Swan]

It looks like the Company and the Judge see the M/Bond process as the way out. If the West is an interested party, then they can dispute whatever seniority list that USAPA hands over to the APA. That dispute will be solved by final and binding arbitration.

For now the West needs to bargain. That doesn't mean starting with the Nicolau and then moving away from it, just some different result than the Nicolau. My suggestion is to take the 2007 lists and remove any furloughed pilot that bypassed recall and is gone. On the Nicolau list the first AWA pilot is around 520. What you offer is to move that pilot up XX numbers towards the top. Also, you will select XX pilots that were on furlough as of the merger and move them into the "active" ratio. So now you have a pin at the top of the list and the bottom of the list. Do a straight ratio from there. Make USAPA pick the XX number and put the ball in their court. Right now, USAPA wants to box in the AOL and force them to negotiate only for the conditions and restrictions that accompany a date of hire list. In this offer you box in USAPA into making a choice on your turf.

We all know that USAPA is internally incapable of making any tough decision so the whole point is moot. However, AOL should present a serious proposal to USAPA that is not the Nicolau award, again it doesn't have to be a concession from the Nicolau, just different. If they demonstrate serious bargaining, then the judge will most likely put them into the M/Bond process and from there it is a slam dunk that the arbitration result will be the previous arbitration result, the Nicolau award.

It is a tortured path, but the judge is handing AOL a ticket to resolution, they just have to bargain first to get there.

Note the gracious oscarjazz never had a solution to the Nicolau when he thought the West was going to prevail. Now he is all about a solution when the West is literally about to go off the cliff. Typical ALPA puke. The ones who jacked the seniority process to begin with.

 

[snapthis]

I don't think so. They had numerous opportunities to come off the Nic
They assumed the risk. Taking that risk does not afford them a re negotiating stance. It does not work that way. They were approached by Cleary, and Hummel. They passed.
Your idea is merely a suggestion, the judge said the Nicolau does not have to be used.
The West and you had this wrong the entire time.
Every other labor group in the AWA US merger has gone DOH. Leonidas is the outlier. They will soon be offered DOH with healthy c&r s. my advice would be to accept it and move on. They have exhausted all legal remedies.

Note the gracious oscarjazz never had a solution to the Nicolau when he thought the West was going to prevail. Now he is all about a solution when the West is literally about to go off the cliff. Typical ALPA puke. The ones who jacked the seniority process to begin with.

Go ahead, follow the BS to the promised land

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-eCX8guIVM

 

[oscarjazz]

Note the gracious oscarjazz never had a solution to the Nicolau when he thought the West was going to prevail. Now he is all about a solution when the West is literally about to go off the cliff. Typical ALPA puke. The ones who jacked the seniority process to begin with.

The West is going to prevail. Everyone else in the world sees it except you guys. In order to prevail, they have to become part of the American/US Airways M/Bond process the judge has to order that. In order for the judge to order that, she must be satisfied that West bargained in good faith. In order to bargain in good faith the West must make some offer other than "Nicolau or bust". It doesn't have to move towards Date of Hire, it just has to be different.

Typical USAPA puke, ignores the Mark-84 heading directly for your skull until it explodes. Keep living in that dream world, the one where you win the snap back grievance, the one where AOL all goes to jail for identity theft, the one where AWAPPA is fined for making phone calls, the one where you invent a phony "safety" campaign and you don't end up in federal court with an injunction slapped on your behinds. Yes enjoy that world for as long as you can.

Let's face it, USAPA will end it's sad little history with no other accomplishment than turning pilot's dues dollars into lawyer fees. They will have not returned a single dime's worth of benefits that did not come from latching onto another carriers bankruptcy contract. It is a sad day when you get a massive raise from American's bankruptcy deal. Delta ended bankruptcy in 2007, we have signed two contracts since then, returned billions in pay and benefits to our pilots. Our first officers now make more than your Captains. So yes, I see why you prefer USAPA to ALPA. Dream world.

 

[Black Swan]

The West is going to prevail. Everyone else in the world sees it except you guys. In order to prevail, they have to become part of the American/US Airways M/Bond process the judge has to order that. In order for the judge to order that, she must be satisfied that West bargained in good faith. In order to bargain in good faith the West must make some offer other than "Nicolau or bust". It doesn't have to move towards Date of Hire, it just has to be different.

Typical USAPA puke, ignores the Mark-84 heading directly for your skull until it explodes. Keep living in that dream world, the one where you win the snap back grievance, the one where AOL all goes to jail for identity theft, the one where AWAPPA is fined for making phone calls, the one where you invent a phony "safety" campaign and you don't end up in federal court with an injunction slapped on your behinds. Yes enjoy that world for as long as you can.

Let's face it, USAPA will end it's sad little history with no other accomplishment than turning pilot's dues dollars into lawyer fees. They will have not returned a single dime's worth of benefits that did not come from latching onto another carriers bankruptcy contract. It is a sad day when you get a massive raise from American's bankruptcy deal. Delta ended bankruptcy in 2007, we have signed two contracts since then, returned billions in pay and benefits to our pilots. Our first officers now make more than your Captains. So yes, I see why you prefer USAPA to ALPA. Dream world.

Sure they will prevail. That is why you are suggesting they negotiate now.
The reason you got your raise is because your agreement did not put a new hire over a 17 yr pilot never furloughed. And one group did not actively work to keep another on a lower pay scale.
You can now see more ALPA problems regarding seniority because of meddling by UAL in the past. This thing is over, and it is not going your way.
You certainly did not help your West pals by feeding them all the bad info about the Nicolau. Now you are trying to get them out of the corner you helped get them into because you don't know jack about the RLA. Good luck with that.

 

[nevergiveup]

Instead of DOH, let's go with date of first line trip after release from ioe!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The West is going to prevail. Everyone else in the world sees it except you guys. In order to prevail, they have to become part of the American/US Airways M/Bond process the judge has to order that. In order for the judge to order that, she must be satisfied that West bargained in good faith. In order to bargain in good faith the West must make some offer other than "Nicolau or bust". It doesn't have to move towards Date of Hire, it just has to be different.

Typical USAPA puke, ignores the Mark-84 heading directly for your skull until it explodes. Keep living in that dream world, the one where you win the snap back grievance, the one where AOL all goes to jail for identity theft, the one where AWAPPA is fined for making phone calls, the one where you invent a phony "safety" campaign and you don't end up in federal court with an injunction slapped on your behinds. Yes enjoy that world for as long as you can.

Let's face it, USAPA will end it's sad little history with no other accomplishment than turning pilot's dues dollars into lawyer fees. They will have not returned a single dime's worth of benefits that did not come from latching onto another carriers bankruptcy contract. It is a sad day when you get a massive raise from American's bankruptcy deal. Delta ended bankruptcy in 2007, we have signed two contracts since then, returned billions in pay and benefits to our pilots. Our first officers now make more than your Captains. So yes, I see why you prefer USAPA to ALPA. Dream world.

Talk about a DREAM WORLD, OJ ALPA's position on the MID ATLANTIC DFR regarding the NIC was what? Pleez quote it for us MORON!

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think so. They had numerous opportunities to come off the Nic
They assumed the risk. Taking that risk does not afford them a re negotiating stance. It does not work that way. They were approached by Cleary, and Hummel. They passed.
Your idea is merely a suggestion, the judge said the Nicolau does not have to be used.
The West and you had this wrong the entire time.
Every other labor group in the AWA US merger has gone DOH. Leonidas is the outlier. They will soon be offered DOH with healthy c&r s. my advice would be to accept it and move on. They have exhausted all legal remedies.

You had better read the filings from yesterday. The world just changed for you guys.

Just how confident are you that anyone outside of east pilots when compared to the Nicolau think DOH is fair?

You may get to make the argument one more time. DOH to the death. Offer it up boys. The bell is about to toll.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You had better read the filings from yesterday. The world just changed for you guys.

Just how confident are you that anyone outside of east pilots when compared to the Nicolau think DOH is fair?

You may get to make the argument one more time. DOH to the death. Offer it up boys. The bell is about to toll.

Thank you "CHICKEN LITTLE"

 

[Bill Brasky]

You had better read the filings from yesterday. The world just changed for you guys.

Just how confident are you that anyone outside of east pilots when compared to the Nicolau think DOH is fair?

You may get to make the argument one more time. DOH to the death. Offer it up boys. The bell is about to toll.

Nope, nothing changed for the East side. Looks like the west, however, is now whining for a do-over. I've got news for you. Just because your lawyer puts it on paper and gives it to the court doesn't mean it's going to happen. In fact, what he presented so far hasn't happened yet. Looks now like the company lawyer, Mr. Clueless, er, I mean Siegel, wants this thing to go to a M/B three-way, even though the law specifically prevents it from being used to combine groups represented by the same bargaining agent. I guess that could happen, but I'd be surprised. Plus, it opens this thing to drag on for a long time, which may actually be the company's motive in the first place.

Get back to us after next Friday, once you stop bawling your eyes out.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Nope, nothing changed for the East side. Looks like the west, however, is now whining for a do-over. I've got news for you. Just because your lawyer puts it on paper and gives it to the court doesn't mean it's going to happen. In fact, what he presented so far hasn't happened yet. Looks now like the company lawyer, Mr. Clueless, er, I mean Siegel, wants this thing to go to a M/B three-way, even though the law specifically prevents it from being used to combine groups represented by the same bargaining agent. I guess that could happen, but I'd be surprised. Plus, it opens this thing to drag on for a long time, which may actually be the company's motive in the first place.

Get back to us after next Friday, once you stop bawling your eyes out.

I wonder if the process can be viewed as combining the west list with APA, and also combining the east list with APA? In other words, two separate events in which groups not represented by the same union are being integrated.

If it gets to arbitrations, it would mean two separate panels, one following the other. (Who gets to go first?) That, at least, would meet the M/B criteria for the necessity of different unions.

 

[Bill Brasky]

I wonder if the process can be viewed as combining the west list with APA, and also combining the east list with APA? In other words, two separate events in which groups not represented by the same union are being integrated.

If it gets to arbitrations, it would mean two separate panels, one following the other. (Who gets to go first?) That, at least, would meet the M/B criteria for the necessity of different unions.

With agreement of the parties I imagine you could do just about anything. What I wonder about, though, is just how "bulletproof" it would be in the event that it generates a DFR because of some kind of unseen fiasco, i.e. the Nic. The only legal way I see is for USAPA to present ONE list, per the NMB "single carrier" determination, and the APA to present their list. I know that the Judge has great latitude to do what she sees fit, but I am skeptical that there would not be some unseen circumstances crop up in the process if it deviates too far from the law as it is written. I know that there is a lot of support on here for the three-way deal, but I think that there is a huge potential to create another windfall for one of the three groups if that happens. Even if the windfall goes to the East, it wouldn't be digested well by the new airline and would just drag this out for a lot longer time. Whatever is done needs to be fair for everyone.

 

[Claxon]

You had better read the filings from yesterday. The world just changed for you guys.

Just how confident are you that anyone outside of east pilots when compared to the Nicolau think DOH is fair?

You may get to make the argument one more time. DOH to the death. Offer it up boys. The bell is about to toll.

The bell has tolled for you Captain Gay. The Nic is dead. Lyingitas out of money. Marty out of ideas. He picked another basket of unripe fruit. Oscarjazz now trying to offer up ideas on how to clean up the mess he helped precipitate.
Waiting for you to approach Scott Kirby in your strange way, and attempt to lecture him within the guise of a question.
Wher have all the cheerleaders gone? Res Judicata? Home they have gone. Res Judicatadoyal lied to the FBI, he has lied to the west pilots, he has lied to himself.