April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[snapthis]

The west is more responsible for USAPA being here than the east!

Your greed and lack of the ability to take responsibility for your failures prior to the acquisition led to the formation of USAPA.

You thought you'd be able to walk all over West pilots with your "Union" with your DOH cramdown.

You gambled and lost. DOH will never see the light of day.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

You are wrong in this respect. USAPA will remain the negotiator for East and West pilots during SLI regardless of which Union will ultimately represent the new American pilots. If a single carrier status was granted today and the NMB declared the APA as the new bargaining agent effective tomorrow. The APA would indeed become the new bargaining agent, but parts of USAPA would remain in place until the completion of SLI. That question has been vetted through several lawyers and under the RLA, USAPA would complete SLI.

And I'll bite on your last question. ALPA represented the East pilots on the first merger and the APA will represent AMR pilots on the second merger... Your point?

No when usapa is replaced usapa goes away completely just like ALPA did. No parts of usapa will remain. How many committee or parts of ALPA remained after usapa was certified? Accident investigation? Grievance? Scheduling? Any?

But you are almost there.

When I first asked my questions about who represented the east and who will represent American I stated it was a technical question. Technically ALPA did not represent the east just like technically APA will not represent the American pilots. The APA will also not be representing east or west pilots during the seniority integration. Usapa will be gone but they would not be representing east or west pilots either.

Ask you lawyer about that.

That is how ALPA avoided liability. That is how APA will avoid liability. That is why usapa is demanding liability.

Think about it and se if you can get to the answer. Who will represent you.

 

[snapthis]

Interesting perspective from East pilot, Chip.

"I have read the transcript and there is a lot to chew on. There are a number of key points.

1. There were no objections to permitting the new American Airlines to intervening.

2. A status report by the parties must be submitted to the court regarding settlement discussions that have basically not occured. This is interesting. With the exception of Marty Harper offering to have an arbitration on whether or not the Nicolau Award has to be used in the upcoming M-B SLI there have been none. This clearly does not bode well for USAPA and Judge Silver appears miffed that this did not occur. It will be very, very interesting to see what the parties present in less than one week to the court by close of business on Tuesday, May 21st.

3. How can USAPA provide a settlement report when their C&BLs require DOH? USAPA has a mandate to seek DOH, which Judge Silver appears to believe is DFR. How will USAPA address this issue?

4. Judge Silver seems to respect Bob Siegel and she seemed to get that the DFR claim is now "ripe" after listening to US Airways' counsel. Siegel's description of the APA Green Book and MOU being a JCBA, except for basically implementation issues such as PBS, appeared to resonate with Judge Silver. And, Pat Szymanski attempted to say the Green Book & MOU was not a contract and the DFR claim was not "ripe", but she would not hear to much from him.

5. Russ Blackwell wrote a compelling review and I believe he's hit the head on the nail. Silver wants this case settled and she's looking for resolution. In my opinion, if USAPA does not come off of their DOH demand and provide a settlement option, that Addington/West Pilot Class can agree to, Silver will issue a DFR order against USAPA.

6. USAPA's PHX-based pilots could have their opportunity to seek a remedy for USAPA reneging on a final and binding agreement because Silver wants the Addington Group to provide a "briefing on what the remedy could or should be if she found a violation of the duty of fair representation."

7. Judge Silver wants to see resolution, which is why she ordered the parties to provide opening briefs on whether the Court has the authority to order that the West Pilots will be a party at the McCaskill-Bond process after listening to Bob Siegel. If Judge Silver orders a 3-way M-B SLI arbitration with 3 different Merger Representative Parties (APA, East Pilots, & West Pilots), USAPA will lose control of the East-West process. And, per Bob Siegel's CAB description there would be no APA or USAPA input, there would 3 Merger Representative Committee's, the West pilots will control their own M-B SLI input, DOH will likely not be an issue, the East pilots will lose their 517 positions at the top of the Nicolau Award list for widebody credit, and the West Pilot Merger Representatives could actually see an even better SLI than the Nicolau Award. What's interesting is that the West Pilot Merger Representatives could re-introduce the Nicolau Award or another suggested East-West list -- it would be their option.

It is clear why Pat Szymanski is vehemently opposed to the West pilots representing them self, but it appears that if the logistics can be worked out and a 3-way M-B SLI proceeds USAPA's PHX-based pilots will control their own M-B SLI arbitration without USAPA's heavy hand and the East pilots, especially those hired between 1984-1988, could be worse off with the M-B Award than if the Nicolau Award had been implemented.

Regards,

Chip"

 

[algflyr]

When the NMB (federal law) no longer recognizes usapa as the bargaining agent. Usapa no longer represents anyone. The committees go away. Usapa will not be an agent for anyone.

What have you all said for years? The new union gets to decide all things new. The new union APA gets to decide who is on the committees and the new unions C&BL prevail.

East pilots will soon be a subset of APA. Still want to advance your argument? According to usapa all that old union stuff goes away and the new union can decide whatever they want because the majority says so.

Legally east pilots will have no standing to negotiate anything. Are you beginning to understand yet?

Again Clear, you are wrong in this regard... I posted a response to this earlier, but see no reply...

 

[cleardirect]

Looking at the law and reading the transcript it seems pretty clear which way this thing is going.

We are two seperate pilot groups who work for the same company. Under the current T/A there was a process for us to combine, in that process nothing, not a single word of it, is binding until the group voted on it and it passed. The process never made it that far due to the NIC fiasco.

Fast forward 7 years, now we all have voted to get rid of everything that came before and embark on a new process and merge with AA. The agreement that we all voted on very clearly states for all to see that everything that came before it is null and void. It also states that there will be lists for Usairways and a list for APA. it also furthurs that notion be stating that the junior pilot from the east list and the west list will be provided for the furlough protection part of the agreement. Then it stipulates the process by which we will combine those two lists with AA's third group of pilots.

The company has indicated that a 3 way is what they expect after looking at it. The transcripts from tuesday discuss that same scenario, and Judge Silver seemed to like that idea.

In its most basic form that is what we have. An incomplete process that at the date of the POR ceases to exist anywhere. I don't know how Silver will word it or what she will rule, but my money is on a ruling that in the end comes to the same conclusion, 3 way after the POR using the POR date snapshot of the lists. Now her ruling may be a 'kick the can' type that just lets the time elapse till the POR, or it may be something more direct. End result is that she is not going to force the NIC, she can't since the process never completed. By the same token USAPA cannot go into the APA merger negotiations with one single usairways list, that would in effect be the same as forcing the NIC. it cannot happen since that process was never completed.

Now what happens in the 3 way is anybodies guess, DOH with fences? Slotting? Who knows. All I am sure of is that it won't be NIC, It won't be straight DOH. We will end up merging with AA based on where we currently are on each of our 3 seniority lists. Once the POR happens nobody is going to give a flying f%^k what anything looked like last week, much less 8 years ago. Several times in the transcript Judge Silver talked about looking forward not back, I think she is already in that mind set.

Does not matter if you are east or west, top of the list or bottom of the list, come somewhere around september nothing we have discussed and argued about on this thread over the last 8 years is going to mean squat.

Thats the way I see it happening. If Vegas was giving odds on this mess that is where i would put my money.

Funny. That is what we all said 8 years ago. Once the arbitrator rules this will be all over and nothing more to discuss.

Forgive me if I find your statement laughable. Unless you are willing to concede that arbitration does complete the process.

 

[PullUp]

When the NMB (federal law) no longer recognizes usapa as the bargaining agent. Usapa no longer represents anyone. The committees go away. Usapa will not be an agent for anyone.

What have you all said for years? The new union gets to decide all things new. The new union APA gets to decide who is on the committees and the new unions C&BL prevail.

East pilots will soon be a subset of APA. Still want to advance your argument? According to usapa all that old union stuff goes away and the new union can decide whatever they want because the majority says so.

Legally east pilots will have no standing to negotiate anything. Are you beginning to understand yet?

I understand it 100%. That's the way it works. I have faith that the APA will not screw themselves just to screw me.
Instead, I believe the APA has enough adult supervision to act in a manner to benefit everyone (after a joint contract is achieved).

 

[cleardirect]

Again Clear, you are wrong in this regard... I posted a response to this earlier, but see no reply...

Specifically what part do you think I am wrong on?

That usapa will no longer be the bargaining agent?

That usapa's assertion that the new union gets to decide everything and disregard everything the old union did?

That east pilots will soon be a subset of APA?

What in my statement do you think is wrong?

Be specific.

 

[nevergiveup]

Your greed and lack of the ability to take responsibility for your failures prior to the acquisition led to the formation of USAPA.

You thought you'd be able to walk all over West pilots with your "Union" with your DOH cramdown.

You gambled and lost. DOH will never see the light of day.

Greed is what destroyed the NIC! Yes, the west is mostly responsible for USAPA. See, I backed down and negotiated.

 

[PullUp]

Funny. That is what we all said 8 years ago. Once the arbitrator rules this will be all over and nothing more to discuss.

Forgive me if I find your statement laughable. Unless you are willing to concede that arbitration does complete the process.

It won't get to arbitration. It'll be done in the negotiation phase. Nobody on AA's list or LCC's list wants to risk arbitration.
Too much of a crapshoot.
Fool me once.....

 

[Keroseneuser]

Funny. That is what we all said 8 years ago. Once the arbitrator rules this will be all over and nothing more to discuss.

Forgive me if I find your statement laughable. Unless you are willing to concede that arbitration does complete the process.

Zoom...right over your head.

As per the MOU, yes arbitration does complete the process, since the powers that be saw the mess from last time and decided to do everything else first.

Now discussing what we are currently working under, No the arbitration did not complete the process. The binding ratification had to take place which never did and now never will.

It's all there in black and white. That is what Judge Silver has to work with, what is in black and white. everything else is just fluff and smoke and mirrors. In it's simplest form, we never completed the first round. And back in feb we all voted to get rid of everything from the first round and do something different.

I think when its all said and done we will be merged with AA and seniority list wise it will be like AWA and Usairways never merged as far as the pilots are concerened.

I think if Silver rules anything other than something that results in the above scenario it will be thrown out by a higher court. I think she knows it and USAirways knows it.

 

[luvthe9]

Go ahead with your DFR, chances slim to none.

You guys would know!!!! 😉

 

[Bill Brasky]

Zoom...right over your head.

As per the MOU, yes arbitration does complete the process, since the powers that be saw the mess from last time and decided to do everything else first.

Now discussing what we are currently working under, No the arbitration did not complete the process. The binding ratification had to take place which never did and now never will.

It's all there in black and white. That is what Judge Silver has to work with, what is in black and white. everything else is just fluff and smoke and mirrors. In it's simplest form, we never completed the first round. And back in feb we all voted to get rid of everything from the first round and do something different.

I think when its all said and done we will be merged with AA and seniority list wise it will be like AWA and Usairways never merged as far as the pilots are concerened.

I think if Silver rules anything other than something that results in the above scenario it will be thrown out by a higher court. I think she knows it and USAirways knows it.

I could be wrong, but I doubt that it will be a three-way, here's why. First, the M/B law specifically excludes combining groups that belong to the same union. That's enough right there, but there's more. The fact that there is no other bargaining agent for ALL LCC pilots other than USAPA means that they are the only entity that can negotiate the list. I think what the Judge is trying to do now is admirable, but the more I look at this, the fewer options I see that she really has. The whole three-way deal has potential to disadvantage one of the groups at the negotiation, and if either doesn't like it, they will sue. Since there is no provision for such a combination, and none was contemplated in the law, it would be difficult to make such a list binding, just like ALPA's merger policy didn't contemplate their being tossed off the property.
I'm hoping that the westies show up "stiff legged" and thumping their chests some more. That will give the Judge more ammo to just rule against them outright. I am discounting just about everything that Mr. Siegel said at the hearing yesterday, because he was clearly out-to-lunch on most of the issues. I hope that Mr. Wilder shows up next week. I think he could explain this a lot better for the Judge.

 

[nic4us]

1. To Swan....please see if you can get ustupid to go try and force a DOH list with the company right now....your about to be replaced lame duck organization will get laughed out of the room and put in the corner for good.

2. You east guys best listen to Munn this time. I don't care how wrong he has been in the past, he gets it. we end up in a three way and you will be left wondering how the he!! The West improved itself from the Nic.

3. The Nic is to this date the only accepted system seniority list covering all LCC pilots.

4. Have a nice day!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I think if Silver rules anything other than something that results in the above scenario it will be thrown out by a higher court. I think she knows it and USAirways knows it.

The only party in Judge Silver's court who can legally present a proposed list is USAPA. It is the union's prerogative according to the RLA, and no one else's. And, it sounds like the judge knows it. But, she is attempting to get USAPA on record as "considering" the Nicolau list. That's the word she used: "consider."

My conjecture....
Court: I see that USAPA has presented the court with a proposed list which is essentially Date-of-Hire with conditions, restrictions and some allowance for length of service. Did you consider the Nicolau list?
USAPA: Yes, your honor. We considered the Nicolau list very carefully, but consider our proposal to best represent the interests of all US Airways pilots.
Court: USAPA complied with the orders of this court to date and the court is satisfied with the proposal. Case dismissed.

 

[PullUp]

3. The Nic is to this date the only accepted system seniority list covering all LCC pilots.

4. Have a nice day!

Accepted by the company but not implemented due to the terms of the TA never being fulfilled.
No vote, no list.
Does the company want to negotiate a section 6 contract now?
How much cash does dougie have?
How bad does he want this?
A single seniority list will cost the company. Why do you think they have not offered this solution?