April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Bill Brasky]

Heading to the MB arbitrators, it would be great to hear the three esteemed arbiters discuss the validity and merit of their predecessor's seniority decision. I wonder how critical they would be of George? Hmmmm. LOL


😀

Don't worry, by then Judge Silver will have made it clear to them. Even ALPA has acknowledged how bad his decision was. LOL!

 

[CallawayGolf]

Don't worry, by then Judge Silver will have made it clear to them. Even ALPA has acknowledged how bad his decision was. LOL!

When did judge Silver refer to the Nicolau award as being "bad" or use any pejorative term toward the award at all? The only remark I recall her making is that an arbitrated award is powerful evidence of a fair result. Still, you think she is going to issue an injunction to the federal M/B arbitration panel not to use the NIC?

 

[Phoenix]

When did judge Silver refer to the Nicolau award as being "bad" or use any pejorative term toward the award at all? The only remark I recall her making is that an arbitrated award is powerful evidence of a fair result. Still, you think she is going to issue an injunction to the federal M/B arbitration panel not to use the NIC?

Of course an arbitration is a powerful argument for fairness, given what is known at the time. You could even argue it is fair in perpetuity. Silver could say it is fair today and forever. And she could even stipulate its use, if it were her decision to make.

 

[Hawkhunter]

It's also a full day past prechill's "T-" countdown, an' I ain't seein' no rockets' red glare at all...at least not of the incoming variety. But then: "St. Nic" wasn't actually "coming to town" in December of 2007 either, or for that matter ever, it would seem. While too often a callous sob; I don't have the blackened heart needed to do so, so someone else can ask her about her arrogantly voiced intent to take a left seat in a 330 shortly.

I thought it was cleardirect that wa wa want wanted the 330. Where is big mouth Res? I thought we were going to get "#### slapped" hard. I do not believe anything that the Judge said. It will be the Nic in T-13 days.

 

[Bill Brasky]

When did judge Silver refer to the Nicolau award as being "bad" or use any pejorative term toward the award at all? The only remark I recall her making is that an arbitrated award is powerful evidence of a fair result. Still, you think she is going to issue an injunction to the federal M/B arbitration panel not to use the NIC?

I didn't say any of that. What she did say was that USAPA was not bound to using the Nic. In fact, she said it more than once. She even alluded to the fact that as far as an LUP goes, the fact that USAPA is required to represent ALL LCC pilots, both East and west, abandoning the Nic is acceptable.

There will be no injunction either way, just a ruling that USAPA is free to use another integration method than the Nic, like she ruled last time.

ALPA did change their integration method, and an agent of ALPA, in court testimony, said that some of the reason why is the failure of the Nic.

All of that is documented. Twist it as you usually do, but that's all in court records. LOL

 

[snapthis]

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
Don Addington, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
US Airline Pilots Association, et al.,
Defendants.
))))))))))))
No. CV-13-00471-PHX-ROS
ORDER
Defendants US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA&rdquo😉, US Airways, Inc. (“US
Airways&rdquo😉, and Plaintiffs Don Addington, et al., (“West Pilots&rdquo😉 have filed various motions.
At the hearing set for May 14, 2013, the parties are to be prepared to discuss the following:
• If the Court were to find West Pilots’ claim ripe, the motion to dismiss might
be granted with leave to amend to allow West Pilots to add factual allegations
regarding USAPA’s allegedly wrongful conduct, some of which appear to be
in the evidence attached to West Pilots’ motion for preliminary injunction.
What additional factual allegations are necessary for West Pilots to state a
plausible claim for relief?
• If West Pilots’ claim against USAPA is ripe, what genuine disputes of material
fact exist such that a trial is necessary for West Pilots to establish their DFR
claim?
• The West Pilots cite to statements made by USAPA’s counsel Patrick J.
Szymanski at a public meeting of Charlotte-based pilots. (Doc. 14 at 22). Will
Mr. Szymanski be a witness?
• At oral argument in the previous case, Mr. Szymanski stated “we’re prepared
to talk and we want to talk and we want genuine engagement from the West
Pilots about the seniority proposal and we are prepared to make changes.”
CV-10-1570-PHX-ROS, Doc. 187 at 31. Does this statement conflict with Mr.
Szymanski’s more recent statements indicating “USAPA will do whatever it
takes to see that there is no Nicolau” and that USAPA will vigorously fight to prevent the West Pilots from being heard during the McCaskill-Bond process?
(Doc. 14-3 at 50-51). Is this approach in violation of this Court’s prior Order
stating “[a]n impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method
of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result” and “[d]iscarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground”?
• In USAPA’s view, if it does not use the Nicolau Award in the McCaskill-Bond
process, when, if ever, would the West Pilots’ claim become ripe?
• Are there only two possible seniority proposals? In other words, is there any prevent the West Pilots from being heard during the McCaskill-Bond process?
(Doc. 14-3 at 50-51). Is this approach in violation of this Court’s prior Order
stating “[a]n impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method
of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result” and “[d]iscarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground”?
• In USAPA’s view, if it does not use the Nicolau Award in the McCaskill-Bond
process, when, if ever, would the West Pilots’ claim become ripe?
• Are there only two possible seniority proposals? In other words, is there any legitimate possibility of a compromise such that USAPA will enter the
McCaskill-Bond process with a seniority list sharing and including provisions
from the Nicolau Award and date-of-hire?
• Has USAPA’s date-of-hire proposal ever changed?
• What is USAPA’s legitimate union purpose for discarding the Nicolau Award
now?
• Recent briefing seems to indicate the West Pilots have changed their theory
against US Airways. What is the precise claim the West Pilots have against
US Airways and why is it not a “minor dispute” subject to mandatory
arbitration?
• American Airlines’ motion to intervene does not include “a pleading that sets out the claim or defense for which intervention is sought.” Fed. R. Civ. P.
24(c). If American Airlines is allowed to intervene, what claim or defense will
it assert?
• Do we know the position of the Allied Pilots Association on the ripeness of the
West Pilots’ claim?
• Do we know what seniority integration the Allied Pilots Association will
propose in the McCaskill-Bond process?
• Based on the MOU, have American Airlines and US Airways agreed to never
take a position regarding the appropriate seniority list to be used by the merged airline?
IT IS SO ORDERED.
DATED this 14th day of May, 2013

 

[PullUp]

The Nic can only be implemented with an east/west JCBA. The MOU that was agreed to is not a JCBA.
The Nic 'lives' within LOA96, which becomes nullified when the POR is approved. LCC pilots GIVE UP their contract and agree to work under the AA pilot contract - they have not negotiated a NEW one. Also at the POR, LOA96 along with all past agreements cease to exist.
The Nic dies with LOA96.
The MOU stipulates status quo until a new combined US-AA list can be created, first by negotiation, then M/B arbitration.
The Nic issue will never be ripe, since the west voted 98% to a new seniority process instead of LOA96.
AOL should have no standing during seniority negotiations as USAPA represents all LCC pilots under the RLA.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I wonder how critical they would be of George? Hmmmm. LOL

😀

There's really no telling. They may think George has been subject to unfair treatment at the hands of east pilots. They may think George really did issue an award that was the labor integration equivalent to "Plan 9 from Outer Space."

There's really no telling. Just because Nicolau is a member of the "arbitrators' club" does not mean that he has no detractors among those ranks. A few probably do indeed think he is a senile old man and feel that he diminished their profession by his outrageous "award."

There's really no telling.

 

[snapthis]

The West Pilots cite to statements made by USAPA’s counsel Patrick J.
Szymanski at a public meeting of Charlotte-based pilots. (Doc. 14 at 22). Will
Mr. Szymanski be a witness?
• At oral argument in the previous case, Mr. Szymanski stated “we’re prepared
to talk and we want to talk and we want genuine engagement from the West
Pilots about the seniority proposal and we are prepared to make changes.”
CV-10-1570-PHX-ROS, Doc. 187 at 31. Does this statement conflict with Mr.
Szymanski’s more recent statements indicating “USAPA will do whatever it
takes to see that there is no Nicolau” and that USAPA will vigorously fight to prevent the West Pilots from being heard during the McCaskill-Bond process?
(Doc. 14-3 at 50-51). Is this approach in violation of this Court’s prior Order
stating “[a]n impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method
of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result” and “[d]iscarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground”?

USAPA by it's inception has always been on dangerous ground.

Duh.

 

[PullUp]

How long did ALPA represent us airways pilots after the NMB declared usapa the bargaining agent?

That is how long usapa will hang around and represent anyone after the APA is certified.

Reading Comprehension: C-
Read the friggin' MOU.

 

[Zone5]

When did judge Silver refer to the Nicolau award as being "bad" or use any pejorative term toward the award at all? The only remark I recall her making is that an arbitrated award is powerful evidence of a fair result. Still, you think she is going to issue an injunction to the federal M/B arbitration panel not to use the NIC?

Do you really think that there is a "snowballs chance in hell", that a three arbitrator M/B panel would resurrect and compel the use of the NIC? Really?!


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

Reading Comprehension: C-
Read the friggin' MOU.

The MOU does not and can trump federal law or the NMB.

Logic D-

 

[cleardirect]

Do you really think that there is a "snowballs chance in hell", that a three arbitrator M/B panel would resurrect and compel the use of the NIC? Really?!


seajay

Do you think an arbitration panel would ignore and nullify final and binding arbitration?

The cornerstone of their living?

 

[nycbusdriver]

The MOU does not and can trump federal law or the NMB.

Logic D-

If what you say, or dream about is more like it, is true, then exactly what can M/B ever accomplish? Any union could simply get around M/B by filing and getting a single-carrier status. Somehow, I don't think the law provides for such easy circumvention.

The fact of the matter is, no one here thinks your "theory" about future events around single-carrier status is credible. Nor are you, for the most part.

This particular dream has about as much likelihood as that of your dream of an injunction on May 14th.

Grasp at those straws, though. Maybe one will hold you up out of the cesspool of your warped mind. But, I doubt it.

 

[Pi brat]

So I hear there is a meeting of strange bedfellows about to happen at HQ. Hmmm. Judge Silver will be pleased.