April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

The MOU states: "A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible after the Effective Date. If, on the date ninety (90) days following the Effective Date, direct negotiations have failed to result in a merged seniority list acceptable to the pilots at both airlines, a panel of three neutral arbitrators will be designated within fifteen (15) days to resolve the dispute, pursuant to the authority and requirements of McCaskill-Bond. That arbitration proceeding will commence no later than 60 days after the designation of the arbitrators, or as soon thereafter as practicable given the availability of the designated arbitrators, provided that it is understood that, in no event, shall the seniority integration arbitration proceeding commence prior to final approval of the JCBA pursuant to the deadlines and procedures in Paragraph 27 below. The panel of arbitrators will render its award within six (6) months of the commencement of the arbitration, and in any event not later than 24 months after the Effective Date. "

What happens if USAPA and the APA agrees to a seniority list in the 90 days and submits it to separate pilot ratification (part of the 90 day process) and if both pilot groups ratify it then it comes into effect and if either or both don't ratify it the it goes to arbitration.?

That is something that can also be argued that IT'S NOT RIPE YET.

 

[snapthis]

You posted a quote stating that awa pilots did not fly in Australia, I asked you to clarify this twice. Your creditability is questionable regarding most of your posts.

snapthis, on 28 April 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:" Evertime I see you post this, I'll post a rebuttal which has be posted on another forum:"

"evertime"? "has be"?

http://www.airlinefo...040#entry996339

Claxon, do you have a college degree? In my college days in the 70's and early 80's I had to spend hours doing research on microfilm to get info. Now, info is a computer click. Do I have to lead you to the link?

http://www.airlinepi...-update-79.html

I thought this poster had a good explaination. Go over there and ask Cactusmike if it bothers you that much. Sheesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusmike
I know the guys who flew in Australia. No one crossed a picket line. There was no strike, there was a work dispute and the Australian pilots resigned their positions. But there was never a strike. They flew AWA airplanes under contract just like every ACMI operator out there. There were Brannif and Wardair guys that took jobs down there. AWA pilots did not.

UAL also flew domestic passengers between SYdney and Melbourne but everyone conveniently forgets that. It's easy to throw names on a list that can't be disputed or verified.

There were a couple of wein scabs at AWA but they are long gone. James Ray, however, a CO scab is still a USAPA spokesman.

USAPA was set up to circumvent a lawful union, ALPA. USAPA meets the definition of a,yellow dog union. All they have done is given management free rein to whipsaw two pilot groups. Thankfully, USAPA's days are numbered You want to rationalize the Australia thing, fine, but I see many UAL, WAA and EAL scab names that ended up at AWA.

Ray says they got his name wrong, that he never crossed a line. Maybe, maybe not, but if he got through at PI after scabbing he was a rarity.

Fact is many west guys misuse the term and you guys should call them on it.

I found this definition of a yellow dog union:

"Yellow dog union is used to refer to an employee association that resembles a trade union. A yellow dog union will be affiliated secretly and it is operated by an employer. It is also known as company union."

Are you claiming that USAPA is run by US Airways management?

 

[end_of_alpa]

There's more to this than you're going to find in your dog-eared copy of Blacks Law Dictionary. You know exactly what you promised the East if they elected USAPA. No pay raises in 5 years? No improvements of any kind? 105% MORE expensive than ALPA? Continuous, multi venue law suits? That's a hell of a long way from your 90 day DOH contract.

Ever think you may be just as wrong about anything else? Everything about the current case is different and you pathetically, cowardly attempt to hide behind ripeness in perpetuity is, by definition and common sense, impossible. Once again, its USAPA all alone on the island. May 14 is going to be the Hiroshima of USAPA, followed by Nagasaki when the NMB certifies APA without a vote.

The companies tone with your fake union has taken a decided turn. Be ready for the Post USAPA Neurenberg-like-trials. The West class is assembling a list of those who will be personally sued when this is all over. Win or lose, even the possibility of sending most of you into personal BK as you enter your retirement years is motivation enough.

Guess who's on that list JJ?

"Black's Law Dictionary is the most widely used law dictionary in the United States. It was founded by Henry Campbell Black. It is the reference of choice for definitions in legal briefs and court opinions and has been cited as a secondary legal authority in many U.S. Supreme Court cases." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black's_Law_Dictionary

You're a has been. Hard to dog-ear electronically updated material.

It just so happens I have Black's Law 9th om my iPad and iPhone. You may wish to purchase a copy so you and yours can reference the LAW properly. BTW, is that list the same list John Schereff pilfered from the company and gave to AwFOL with our Social Security numbers?

 

[end_of_alpa]

"....the issue of whether USAPA can negotiate seniority with the intention of using something other than the Nicolau Award was adjudicated by this Court in October 2012 when it granted USAPA summary judgment in the Declaratory Judgment Action, holding that “USAPA’s seniority proposal does not automatically breach its duty of fair representation.” Plaintiffs did not appeal. Accordingly, this Court’s judgment is res judicata and bars Plaintiffs from re-litigating their claim that USAPA is bound to negotiate for the Nicolau award or that failure to include a requirement in the MOU to negotiate for the Nicolau award violates its duty of fair representation. 2:10-cv-01570- ROS, Doc. 193, p. 8."

 

[Zone5]

Leaders at the largest unions at American Airlines Inc. and US Airways Inc. have agreed to merge their seniority lists by how long the employees have worked in their jobs. “The IAM/TWU seniority agreement is yet another positive step forward in the merger between US Airways and American Airlines,” US Airways spokesman Ed Stewart added. American and US Airways have “memorandums of understanding” with the unions representing their pilots and flight attendants that spell out a process for deciding how they’ll combine their seniority lists.

Well that makes it official, ALL the other employee unions at the "New" AMR have agreed to a DOH seniority integration. I wonder what their "LUP's" are? How could this be? Shocking, just shocking! Oh, that's right, pilots are special, because of Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.............unlike their fellow employee workers (at BOTH company's), some pilots (a minority at that) think that they are so "special" that the passage of time should not be a factor in getting to a SLI.


seajay

 

[Claxon]

Claxon, do you have a college degree? In my college days in the 70's and early 80's I had to spend hours doing research on microfilm to get info. Now, info is a computer click. Do I have to lead you to the link?

http://www.airlinepi...-update-79.html

I thought this poster had a good explaination. Go over there and ask Cactusmike if it bothers you that much. Sheesh

Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusmike
I know the guys who flew in Australia. No one crossed a picket line. There was no strike, there was a work dispute and the Australian pilots resigned their positions. But there was never a strike. They flew AWA airplanes under contract just like every ACMI operator out there. There were Brannif and Wardair guys that took jobs down there. AWA pilots did not.

UAL also flew domestic passengers between SYdney and Melbourne but everyone conveniently forgets that. It's easy to throw names on a list that can't be disputed or verified.

There were a couple of wein scabs at AWA but they are long gone. James Ray, however, a CO scab is still a USAPA spokesman.

USAPA was set up to circumvent a lawful union, ALPA. USAPA meets the definition of a,yellow dog union. All they have done is given management free rein to whipsaw two pilot groups. Thankfully, USAPA's days are numbered You want to rationalize the Australia thing, fine, but I see many UAL, WAA and EAL scab names that ended up at AWA.

Ray says they got his name wrong, that he never crossed a line. Maybe, maybe not, but if he got through at PI after scabbing he was a rarity.

Fact is many west guys misuse the term and you guys should call them on it.

I found this definition of a yellow dog union:

"Yellow dog union is used to refer to an employee association that resembles a trade union. A yellow dog union will be affiliated secretly and it is operated by an employer. It is also known as company union."

Are you claiming that USAPA is run by US Airways management?

You intentionally provided a misleading quote from another form, written by one of the west pilots you know, after you saw your west pilots starring in an Ansett video, "you thought".

You provided a list of contributors with names repeated twice. "I accidentally hit the wrong key" was your excuse.

You bring up quotes from one sided anti East pilot web sites and sources that are less than verifiable.

Then, instead of admitting you were wrong, you ramble on in your quote above.

Being a spin doctor is not your forte.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What Harper argues:

"The sine qua non of a carrier-employer acting in concert with a union to deny workers’ rights is where the carrier-employer and the union enter into an agreement that, on its face, violates the union’s DFR. Indeed, the first decision to recognize the existence of the DFR established that courts have jurisdiction in such matters over the carrier- employer. Steele v. Louisville & N.R. Co., 323 U.S. 192 (1944)."

What the Supreme Court said in Steele v. Louisville:

"The question is whether the Railway Labor Act, 48 Stat. 1185, 45 U.S. C. 151 et seq., 45 U.S.C.A. 151 et seq., imposes on a labor organization, acting by authority of the statute as the exclusive bargaining representative of a craft or class of railway employees, the duty to represent all the employees in the craft without discrimination BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE, and, if so, whether the courts have jurisdiction to protect the minority of the craft or class from the violation of such obligation."

"The economic DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NEGROS practiced by the Brotherhood and the railroad under color of Congressional authority raises a grave constitutional issue that should be squarely faced.

The utter disregard for the dignity and the well-being of colored citizens shown by this record is so pronounced as to demand the invocation of constitutional condemnation. To decide the case and to analyze the statute solely upon the basis of legal niceties, while remaining mute and placid as to the obvious and oppressive deprivation of constitutional guarantees, is to make the judicial function something less than it should be."

QUESTION: WHAT RACE IS AwFOL?

 

[snapthis]

You intentionally provided a misleading quote from another form, written by one of the west pilots you know, after you saw your west pilots starring in an Ansett video, "you thought".

You provided a list of contributors with names repeated twice. "I accidentally hit the wrong key" was your excuse.

You bring up quotes from one sided anti East pilot web sites and sources that are less than verifiable.

Then, instead of admitting you were wrong, you ramble on in your quote above.

Being a spin doctor is not your forte.

That does does not even make sense, Claxon. My forte is having an aversion when dealing with a mental midget. You remind me of Rainman standing over in the corner mumbling to yourself repeating the same thing over and over again. That would describe you fixation with anything down under.

Your cute little video screams of hypocrisy when you have JR as the USAPA spokesperson.

 

[cactusboy53]

Leaders at the largest unions at American Airlines Inc. and US Airways Inc. have agreed to merge their seniority lists by how long the employees have worked in their jobs. “The IAM/TWU seniority agreement is yet another positive step forward in the merger between US Airways and American Airlines,” US Airways spokesman Ed Stewart added. American and US Airways have “memorandums of understanding” with the unions representing their pilots and flight attendants that spell out a process for deciding how they’ll combine their seniority lists.

Well that makes it official, ALL the other employee unions at the "New" AMR have agreed to a DOH seniority integration. I wonder what their "LUP's" are? How could this be? Shocking, just shocking! Oh, that's right, pilots are special, because of Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.............unlike their fellow employee workers (at BOTH company's), some pilots (a minority at that) think that they are so "special" that the passage of time should not be a factor in getting to a SLI.


seajay

Seajay;
Date of Hire does not apply to the seniority of AWA & AAA. We agreed upon a process going all the way through final & binding arbitration. Starting up a new union after the fact and repeating that "DOH is the Gold Standard" does not change the arbitration results. SHOCKING CONCEPT.

If you want to be a flight attendant, mechanic, ramp worker, gate agent, etc....go right ahead. The ONLY reason that we are not living under the Nicolau right now is that you simply out-number us. Where I come from, that is called bully tactics.

Keep clicking those ruby red shoes. This will be over very soon. BTW, did you read the company filings lately?

Regards,
CB

 

[end_of_alpa]

Harper argues:

"More recently and directly on point, the Ninth Circuit affirmed a preliminary injunction directed at an airline (and its pilot union) to remedy a tainted CBA that abrogated a minority pilot group’s right to fair seniority integration after an airline merger. Bernard v. Air Line Pilots Assn., Intl., 873 F.2d 213, 218 (9th Cir. 1989) (“The district court acted within its discretion in issuing an order to set the tainted agreement aside, compel the parties [the union and the airline] to reach a new one . . . .&rdquo. The MOU here, because it fails to implement the Nicolau Award seniority order, is similarly tainted. This Court, therefore, has similar jurisdiction to provide a remedy directed at both US Airways and USAPA."

What Bernard said:
http://openjurist.org/873/f2d/213/bernard-v-air-line-pilots-association-international

"Two uncontested facts support the district court's finding that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation.

First, NO Jet America pilot was permitted to participate in ALPA negotiations with Alaska after the merger, despite requests to do so.
Second, ALPA failed to follow its own merger policy for mergers with ALPA-represented groups. This policy would have required ALPA to conduct internal negotiations with Jet America pilots, and mediate and arbitrate if necessary, before presenting its position to management."

FACT #1: Two of the NAC’s (four) members, Ken Holmes and Rocky Calveri are West pilots.

FACT #2: PHX ratification. Yes, I am in favor of the MOU 1017 or %97.69

 

[Claxon]

That does does not even make sense, Claxon. My forte is having an aversion when dealing with a mental midget. You remind me of Rainman standing over in the corner mumbling to yourself repeating the same thing over and over again. That would describe you fixation with anything down under.

Your cute little video screams of hypocrisy when you have JR as the USAPA spokesperson.

You are very misleading and slippery on this forum. Your lack of civility in your quote above is troubling.

 

[prechilill]

Sadly, the Ninth stopped looking at what really happened in Wake's courtroom once it found lack of ripeness. It wasn't ripe, so the Ninth said it never happened.

If there is a next time, once the ripeness issue is no longer relevant, if the judge runs the trial like Wake did, the Ninth will then get to rule on the particulars of the case and the trial.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the Ninth's ruling implied that Wake's trial was without flaw, but simply not ripe. You're wrong.

And Oprah would be really upset if you tried to type while driving. It's not too healthy for the kids, either. Glad you don't do that.

Larry, you really need to read before posting. Seriously- you have no clue

 

[end_of_alpa]

Seajay;
Date of Hire does not apply to the seniority of AWA & AAA. We agreed upon a process going all the way through final & binding arbitration. Starting up a new union after the fact and repeating that "DOH is the Gold Standard" does not change the arbitration results. SHOCKING CONCEPT.

If you want to be a flight attendant, mechanic, ramp worker, gate agent, etc....go right ahead. The ONLY reason that we are not living under the Nicolau right now is that you simply out-number us. Where I come from, that is called bully tactics.

Keep clicking those ruby red shoes. This will be over very soon. BTW, did you read the company filings lately?

Regards,
CB

"With respect to plaintiffs’ claim for breach of the duty of fair representation (“DFR&rdquo against defendant US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA&rdquo, US Airways REMAINS NEUTRAL on the merits of the claim."

".....in fact, US Airways will not be presenting or advocating for the use of the Nicolau Award or any other seniority list in the US Airways/American seniority-integration process."
Plaintiffs’ Complaint contains only one cause of action against US Airways, for breach of the collectively-bargained Transition Agreement based on the allegations that an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing embodied in the Transition Agreement
Plaintiffs’ Complaint contains only one cause of action against US Airways, for requires the use of the Nicolau Award in the US Airways/American seniority-integration process and that US Airways breached that covenant when it entered into the MOU without expressly requiring the use of the Nicolau Award. (Compl. (Doc. No. 1) at ¶¶ 101-112.) This claim raises a “minor dispute” that is subject to the exclusive arbitral jurisdiction of a Board of Adjustment under the Railway Labor Act. (See US Airways’ Motion to Dismiss (Doc. No. 28).)

Accordingly, the Court DOES NOT HAVE subject-matter jurisdiction over that claim and it cannot serve as the basis for injunctive relief against US Airways."

The FACT IS Dave is you continue to believe that if the East pilots don't agree with you then they're not reading the pleadings. SYIC chump.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Larry, you really need to read before posting. Seriously- you have no clue

"Larry", don't bother to argue law. If you do then you have no clue.

 

[end_of_alpa]

That does does not even make sense, Claxon. My forte is having an aversion when dealing with a mental midget. You remind me of Rainman standing over in the corner mumbling to yourself repeating the same thing over and over again. That would describe you fixation with anything down under.

Your cute little video screams of hypocrisy when you have JR as the USAPA spokesperson.

Kind of like the AwFOL legal maxim of "final and binding".