April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[N924PS]

Sigh!...Yeah..and "sometimes", even self-seeking, narcicisstic jerkoffs, fat with their own DOH placing, and only whining over what "they" can get, and how easy "their" commute "should" be, can be wrong, even if you ain't any majority.

You never were any universally accepted PSA type...not hardly Miramar club material in your wildest, wet dreams...and it's frankly just disgusting to have you even remotely associated with any of the rest of us.

Sigh...and even the best airline hiring practices allow someone such as yourself to slip through the cracks.

Miramar Club? That went out with "Top Gun" in 1986. Oh, but I forgot you still like to dogfight." Too close for missiles, switching to guns.."

 

[Claxon]

Yeah. And sometimes two out of three can be wrong, even if they are the majority.

Bybee was spot on.

Reminds me of the failed in house alpa arbitration. Nicolau and gillen from ual thought a new hire america west pilot should go above a never furloughed East pilot. cal pilot brucia disagreed.

cal and ual are working on their own seniority pilot list. Now brucia thinks a cal new hire should go above a never furloughed ual pilot and gillen has a new found respect for longevity.

 

[EastUS1]

The other two were indecisive. Judges should make decisions, not kick the can down the road.

Umm..Still burdened with complete fantasies as to how the world/legal system, et all, actually works snap? Presuming adequate intellect, without any necessarily intended insult...well...seriously; don't you find that just a bit tedious?

 

[EastUS1]

Miramar Club? That went out with "Top Gun" in 1986.

"That went out with "Top Gun" in 1986."...? No surprise that you've never even seen the inside settings/effects of that admittedly ridiculous film. You perhaps DO know that then PSA's Vice Admiral Pettigrew, aka "Viper", had that cameo with Kelly M. in the club, and the homage to his call, because he was the liason working the base setup?...No? Well...no matter... You've never even seen the inside of it, outside of a movie, that is...PSA's "finest".

Not to worry. The world, sadly, by proven way of your very existence (and that of AWA's "mighty spartans") has it's places for even complete wimps....and you "went out" without ever, and before even so much as any suggested whimper of ever being a "Pilot", ever happened for you...and you will go to your grave as such, and fully know it. Sucks to be you.

N924PS: "Too close for missiles, switching to guns.."...? Cute. NO one would EVER babble such nonsense in real life. Sell your pathetic crap to AWA "spartans", wannabe westie...the PSA community knows you to be a joke.

Dismissed.

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah. And sometimes two out of three can be wrong, even if they are the majority.

Bybee was spot on.

So was General Lee, and I suppose respect for him was greater and will last longer than for Judge B.

 

[snapthis]

Umm..Still burdened with complete fantasies as to how the world/legal system, et all, actually works snap? Presuming adequate intellect, without any necessarily intended insult...well...seriously; don't you find that just a bit tedious?

The stagegy of delay worked for a while. Not for long.

Oh come on East, you knew we'd end up back in court, eventually............ .Enventually is knocking on the door.

 

[EastUS1]

Oh come on East, you knew we'd end up back in court, eventually............ .Enventually is knocking on the door.

All is as it will happen snap. Any/all of us make of ourselves nothing but complete fools to ever confidently presume on future events in any courtrooms...ever...just sayin'....

I trust NOTHING in this world LESS than lawyers and courtrooms. Your actual mileage may, and seemingly does vary. In my notions of a rational world...well..our respective sides would've hammered all this out with a bit of mutual respect, substantive reason, dispassionate thought, and a final hand shake....Oh well.

PS: How are the "Dire Wolves" and "Knights" doing...good "spartan"?...And...umm....I'm actually supposed to take your folks, as a whole, at ALL seriously!?...Really!?

 

[Phoenix]

All is as it will happen snap. Any/all of us make of ourselves nothing but complete fools to ever confidently presume on future events in any courtrooms...ever...just sayin'....

I trust NOTHING in this world LESS than lawyers and courtrooms. Your actual mileage may, and seemingly does vary. In my notions of a rational world...well..our respective sides would've hammered all this out with a bit of mutual respect, substantive reason, dispassionate thought, and a final hand shake....Oh well.

That would assume that mother ALPA actuall stood by its feigned representational persona it sells so well. Once they tied the cat's tails together and stood by while Nic lit a match on them it was too far out of hand.

 

[EastUS1]

That would assume that mother ALPA actuall stood by its feigned representational persona it sells so well. Once they tied the cat's tails together and stood by while Nic lit a match on one of them it was too far out of hand.

Indeed sir. I'd slipped a moment into Fantasyland myself with that.....and whimsically imagined actual men taking on earnest responsibility...hardly to be confused with anything alpo did, at least within the last quarter of a century.

Umm...and certainly nothing to ever be confused with "spartans", "knights" and "dire wolves"

 

[Claxon]

Evertime I see you post this, I'll post a rebuttal which has be posted on another forum:

"I know the guys who flew in Australia. No one crossed a picket line. There was no strike, there was a work dispute and the Australian pilots resigned their positions. But there was never a strike. They flew AWA airplanes under contract just like every ACMI operator out there. There were Brannif and Wardair guys that took jobs down there. AWA pilots did not.

You posted a quote that stated awa pilots did not fly during the Ansett strike. Would you like the opportunity to correct yourself.

In the following video mike daley and eddie chandler were not only flying during that time, they made the following video to recruit others to do so. Be specific. Your post was very misleading

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5t5aE0iW4o

 

[Claxon]

“In the US Airways – America West case, it went to binding arbitration but there was a requirement as part of that that the two unions negotiate a joint contract with the company, which wasn’t done yet.
And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby interview

"NO!"

Scott Kirby PHX meeting with cleardirect.

http://aviationblog....r-us-airw.html/

 

[EastUS1]

So was General Lee, and I suppose respect for him was greater and will last longer than for Judge B.

Gereral Lee is not any appropriate reference for even the slightest portion of any/all of this childish nonsense. Let's leave the Fantasyland BS to the "spartans" sir.

 

[snapthis]

A Conversation with an Attorney​

KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL​

On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.

Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.

In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.

Chris Katzenbach feels that a direct assault on this award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.

Chris said the contract was truly piece of "####" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award. Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.

A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.

When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act /
NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie.

This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.

Respectfully Submitted,

an aaapilots4fairness committee member


USAPA, A Legitimate Union With a Purpose ?

 

[FL430]

Gold level, $1500 to the $3000 level:

Link:

http://www.cactuspil...ntributors.com/

I didn't want to repeat your name list but you duplicated A through S names twice. Was there a specific reason for this?

 

[snapthis]

I didn't want to repeat your name list but you duplicated A through S names twice. Was there a specific reason for this?

Techincal difficulties. I saw it but the edit button was removed.