Apfa's Latest Attack On The Furloughed F/as

[AAStew]

Does anyone know for a fact that the APFA is trying to do this? I do not see it posted anywhere on their site. I do see they sending a ballot out to reduce dues for all who are paying. I personally do not like the APFA but why get all worked up unless it is a known fact? Also it seems to me from their postings that Ward is in the minority at the APFA at the moment and the other officers are doing all in their power to reduce his power to do anything.
It also seems to me that the current officers (JW excluded) do not want to work against any furloughed members as they owe their being elected to them!
The sad truth is most furloughees probably will not be recalled, there are close to 6000 of you! I know it is easy to vent against the APFA about this, but it is not their fault this occurred (TWA'rs I know you feel differently). Out lot right now is pretty sad...but it seems that other airlines are hiring (jetblue, airtran, eagle, us airways express). I know they don't pay as great as we used to, but then again it is the APFA you had to thank for that pay...ironic isn't it?

 

[Bear96]

The ability for furloughees to vote and hold office is NOT, repeat NOT, an APFA policy, it is a constitutional right.

...

Changing policy at any time is one thing. Changing constitutional rights is another. If you don't understand or see the difference between "raising your rent" and denying you the right to housing, I don't think I can explain it to you. This is not raising the dues, this is denying people the right to vote.

It's analogous to the difference between Federal and state laws and the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Congress and the state legislatures can pass any law they care to as long as they have a majority vote. These laws set governmental policy. However, if the U.S. Supreme Court determines that the law violates the U.S. Constitution, the Court can declare the law null and void.

The courts have not looked kindly over the past 150 years or so at the majority trying to deny rights to a minority simply by majority vote. Particularly when the motive for doing so is so patently obvious.

I am a little confused now as to which constitution you are referring to. There is nothing in the US Constitution that says "furloughed union members shall have the right to vote and hold office in their union without paying dues," as far as I am aware. If I am wrong, please provide a reference to the appropriate Article or Amendment.

And if you are referring to the APFA constitution, that is in fact, and legally speaking, little more than the union's "policy." All constitutions, even the US Constitution, can be changed. Certainly it is harder to change a constitution than a simple policy (or legislative act), but it certainly can be done and there is nothing "illegal" about it. And once something is in a constitution, it is by definition not unconstitutional.

Anyway. I don't mean to get into an argument with you. I just wanted to point out that it is most likely a waste of your time and resources to try to make a legal case out of what APFA is doing, which seems to be (based on what you have said) simply changing an internal way of doing business (a private organization's policy, constitution, whatever). It doesn't matter to me. If you are so sure you have a compelling legal argument, hire a lawyer and good luck to you.

 

[jimntx]

Does anyone know for a fact that the APFA is trying to do this? I do not see it posted anywhere on their site. I do see they sending a ballot out to reduce dues for all who are paying. I personally do not like the APFA but why get all worked up unless it is a known fact?

Oh, you haven't heard it; so, it must not be true. They haven't gone public with it yet, but it's in the works.

Also it seems to me from their postings that Ward is in the minority at the APFA at the moment and the other officers are doing all in their power to reduce his power to do anything.
It also seems to me that the current officers (JW excluded) do not want to work against any furloughed members as they owe their being elected to them!

Ward is not in the minority. The "power" lies with the Board of Directors--most of whom are JW supporters. It is the 3 newly elected national officers who are in the minority.

The sad truth is most furloughees probably will not be recalled, there are close to 6000 of you! I know it is easy to vent against the APFA about this, but it is not their fault this occurred (TWA'rs I know you feel differently).

I'm not former TW and I don't believe any of this for a second. For instance, if you truly believe that AA can go 4 more years without recalling any furloughees then you are smoking some truly wonderful stuff. I hope you don't get picked for a random drug test. And, it IS APFA's fault. There were concessions that APFA could have made to the company that would have resulted in few or no furloughs, but because the ideas came from the former TW flight attendants, JW refused to even consider them.

Out lot right now is pretty sad...but it seems that other airlines are hiring (jetblue, airtran, eagle, us airways express). I know they don't pay as great as we used to, but then again it is the APFA you had to thank for that pay...ironic isn't it?

To quote Socrates, "Boo-frickin-hoo." Typical selfish, self-centered, and clueless nAAtive attitude. I tell you what. Since you seem to think that starting back over at the bottom at Eagle wages is so easy, why don't you do it and let me have your slot at AA under those terrible conditions? Yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh, and as far as those industry-leading wages that JW got for the TW flight attendants. It's not ironic at all. Most of them actually took pay cuts as far as their take-home pay because you and I as nAAtives were working under 1970's duty rigs and benefits. Even though they made less per hour, they ended up taking home more. Now I guess APFA has "negotiated" you back to the 1960's.

I put the word negotiated in quotes because rolling over and screaming, "Oh do it to me again. It didn't hurt enough last time!" is not really negotiating.

 

[AAStew]

Jim
Again is it a fact? And i did not say no one would be recalled but the majority won't. the majority being anything over half. And no I do not think it would be great to start at the bottom somewhere else, but it seems to me you were probably somewhere close at the time (seniority wise at least). But if you would rather have unemployment benefits (if you are still receiving them), go right ahead, do that.
This is a volatile industry, always has been, always will be. You will never be assured of a job, especially something as expendable as a flight attendant job. The truth hurts, but you keep moaning if it makes you feel better.

 

[buhbye]

Oh, and as far as those industry-leading wages that JW got for the TW flight attendants. It's not ironic at all. Most of them actually took pay cuts as far as their take-home pay because you and I as nAAtives were working under 1970's duty rigs and benefits. Even though they made less per hour, they ended up taking home more. Now I guess APFA has "negotiated" you back to the 1960's.

I put the word negotiated in quotes because rolling over and screaming, "Oh do it to me again. It didn't hurt enough last time!" is not really negotiating.

Absolutely 100% Correct!

That now "in dust" contract was huge, impossible to find ANYTHING in! Stilll better than what we had!

Still the TWA F/A's had MUCH better work rules!

The Hedges group wrote the language, Laura Glading more specifically!l

All Ward did was sign his name!


The ONLY contract Ward negotiated is the RPA!
He wouldn't know a good contract if it jumped up and bit him on the nose!

He willingly gave away furlough pay! Even the company told him "shame on you!"

But, oh he REALLY stuck it to the TWA F/A's!!!

This dog just don't hunt anymore people!!
:censored: :wacko: :censored: :wacko: :censored:

 

[jimntx]

The truth hurts, but you keep moaning if it makes you feel better.

Oh, I'm not moaning. Far from it. I don't have to work. But, it seems to me that you and the other nAAtive sheep are the ones who are denying the truth. You just keep repeating the JW mantra. TW bad, JW good. TW bad, JW good. It will help you work without sleep on those short layovers.

 

[AAStew]

Good, we are in the same boat, don't have to work. I don't like JW (did not vote for him ever), I have no illusions about him, the company, and certainly none about my value to either one of them.

 

[ozcobber]

Jim:

It's been a while, do I recall that when furloughees are recalled, we will be required to pay the dues for all the time we are off? Say 1000 are recalled after a year, that amounts to about a half a million dollars. Wouldn't APFA be cutting off its nose to spite its face? Or do I have that all wrong?

 

[AAStew]

If you are on a forced absence there is no dues recovery (reduction in force). At least last time I read there is none.

 

[Flyboy4u]

Jim
Again is it a fact? And i did not say no one would be recalled but the majority won't. the majority being anything over half. And no I do not think it would be great to start at the bottom somewhere else, but it seems to me you were probably somewhere close at the time (seniority wise at least). But if you would rather have unemployment benefits (if you are still receiving them), go right ahead, do that.
This is a volatile industry, always has been, always will be. You will never be assured of a job, especially something as expendable as a flight attendant job. The truth hurts, but you keep moaning if it makes you feel better.

Again is it a fact? And i did not say no one would be recalled but the majority won't. the majority being anything over half.

I agree with Jim....That's some pretty good stuff you are smoking..Would you like to share? Fact is the company is already short F/A's and are only months away from yet another recall. Manning continues to be low, flights are going out with min. crew and option II continues to remain open. With the numbers scheduled to retire I give it less than 2 years before you see all Naatives return and some TWA'rs. Unless in fact, the APFA Is trying to change the constitution on recall rights to 1 year which wouldn't surprise me the way it's going.

And no I do not think it would be great to start at the bottom somewhere else, but it seems to me you were probably somewhere close at the time (seniority wise at least).

Hardly close to the bottom, I am on furlough, a Naative, and was less than a year at the time of furlough from recieving my gold wings....You think that's close to the bottom? Get your head out of the sand.

But if you would rather have unemployment benefits (if you are still receiving them), go right ahead, do that.

It would be nice to be recieving unemployment benefits but fact is the last round of furloughs only recieved them for 6 months unlike previous furloughs. So any compensation including our furlough pay (that we never got) no longer exists. Again, what planet have you been living on or have they been flying you so much that the altitude has affected your understanding on what's been going on lately.

This is a volatile industry, always has been, always will be. You will never be assured of a job, especially something as expendable as a flight attendant job. The truth hurts, but you keep moaning if it makes you feel better

Well you are correct about it being a volatile industry I will give you that. However, F/A jobs will never be expendeable. We will always be needed as long as there is commercial air transportation. However, this industry is changing rapidly. Yes you may have the seniority right now to keep your job, but you could wakup tomorrow on the unemployment line with the rest of us. Ask those from TWA. They know all too well how things can change. It will be very interesting in years to come just to see how much seniority continues to rule this industry.


What Unity?

 

[jimntx]

Jim:

It's been a while, do I recall that when furloughees are recalled, we will be required to pay the dues for all the time we are off? Say 1000 are recalled after a year, that amounts to about a half a million dollars. Wouldn't APFA be cutting off its nose to spite its face? Or do I have that all wrong?

AAstew is correct. There is no dues recovery when furloughees are recalled. At least, there isn't yet. Maybe that will be JW's next project for attacking the TW f/as.

If JW gets away with requiring furloughed f/as to pay dues to vote or hold office, or dues recovery on recall becomes the rule, I will be the first to buy a ticket for any fundraisers held for flight attendants who can't afford it.

This may backfire on him big time, by uniting furloughees from both sides of the house with anyone else who has one shred of conscience. There's bound to be at least a few of them still flying, don't you think?

 

[woztwa]

AAstew is correct. There is no dues recovery when furloughees are recalled. At least, there isn't yet. Maybe that will be JW's next project for attacking the TW f/as.

If JW gets away with requiring furloughed f/as to pay dues to vote or hold office, or dues recovery on recall becomes the rule, I will be the first to buy a ticket for any fundraisers held for flight attendants who can't afford it.

This may backfire on him big time, by uniting furloughees from both sides of the house with anyone else who has one shred of conscience. There's bound to be at least a few of them still flying, don't you think?

You are an intelligent and good man, Jim...

 

[FA Mikey]

First we need to establish that this is in fact true. No offense but only one person has any information on it. Two if it is, we should find out who presented the resolution, who second it and all those voting in favor.

 

[jimntx]

First we need to establish that this is in fact true. No offense but only one person has any information on it. Two if it is, we should find out who presented the resolution, who second it and all those voting in favor.

Mike, granted this is just a rumor so far, but my information is that it is not a BOD resolution that would be voted on in a public meeting. As you know, there is a Constitutional Revision Committee looking at "needed" revisions to the APFA Constitution. What my source (enquiring minds want to know) said is that the plan is to bury this revision in a bunch of other proposed revisions in the hope that no one will notice it.

And, lord knows, with the apathy of the average AA f/a, the chances are slim that many flight attendants will actually read a list of proposed Constitutional revisions (which are boring at best). They'll just follow the suggestion of the BOD to either vote for or against the revisions or not bother to vote at all.

Oh, and I'm not the only one who knows about it. I'm just the one who posted it here. It's been discussed for several days on another bb I belong to. It's for furloughed flight attendants. Maybe we have a mole inside at Useless Blvd! h34r: (You do know that I am joking, I hope.)

 

[buhbye]

Mike, granted this is just a rumor so far, but my information is that it is not a BOD resolution that would be voted on in a public meeting.

Public.............Nothing is public anymore!!

Closed sessions, closed doors.............................................


Secrets.....................................too many secrets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!