APA, USAPA and the Ghost of TWA

[MetalMover]

There isn't an option for using overseas pilots or even a large group of domestic contract pilots. They simply don't exist.
 
They would if they could.
 
IMHO, I don't know about all employee groups, but the pilots were already far behind in pay with other US pilot groups. Some AA groups were a few percentage points away from the industry leaders on pay. That should have been taken into account instead of the blanket 17%.

Mach,,,We all took in the shorts.. But across the board, the loss of OH to outsourcing is devastating to the mechanics' ranks...

 

[Mach85ER]

I am surely aware of the BS that has rained down on Tulsa.We're next as soon as they figure a way. Hello Norwiegen?

 

[Claxon]

No argument here.   From November 29, 2011, it was clear that the board had finally exhausted its patience with Arpey and his "bankruptcy is what failures do and we prefer to wait for the other airlines to be overly generous with their new contracts" strategy.   Instead, the board ordered him to cram new contracts down the throats of, primarily, the pilots and the flight attendants.   AA wanted to outsource 79-82 seat large RJs (finally agreed on the new industry-standard 76 seats).   From the pilots and the FAs, AA wanted to sweep away some of the "work rules" that management said were inefficient.   
 
AA wasn't broke and its business model wasn't broken as UA and DL had both merged and were showing promise of improvements with the same business model AA was using.   They had just become bigger than AA.   AA had amassed enough cash from various loans that it did not need to beg banks for debtor-in-possession financing.   
 
Of course, bankruptcy law requires that all work groups give up equal percentages and thus, the fleet service and mechanics (who were already poorly paid) had to give up the same 17% of their labor costs.    
 

If the SLI is handed to an arbitration panel, I don't see them trying to combine AA, US East and US West (America West).   Instead, I see them taking a shortcut and dusting off Nicolau's already-prepared list from 2007.   Nor do I see an arbitration panel starting from scratch and re-doing the US East and West integration all over again.   It's already done.   
 

You may be right, but I don't read those decisions as requiring that the 2007 list be ignored.   It was a snapshot, as you say, of the US pilots as of the merger.   
 
I'm not saying that the APA list and the NIC list will be combined just like the NIC list was created, only that they won't waste time and energy re-doing what Nicolau did in the last arbitration.   The facts and circumstances of this merger (AA and US) are different from the facts and circumstances of the last merger (US and HP).    The fact that a bunch of pilots tried to run away from an arbitration result with which they disagreed won't cause arbitrators to now ignore the existence of that list.   
 

Like I said - you may be right, but Judge Silver has no authority when it comes to SLI arbitration of the APA and USAPA pilots.   The Federal Arbitration Act declares arbitration off-limits to judicial interference.   Until over-ruled by higher courts, the Judge's opinions control the damages suit between the US East and US West pilot groups - nobody's disputing that.  
 
I merely predict that the APA list and the NIC list will be combined in a new arbitration later this year or next year.   And nobody's going to be particularly happy with the result, except perhaps the America West (US West) pilots.

If the Nicolau list was done, and done in 2007, please give your explanation why it is not in effect 7 years later?

 

[700UW]

You know the answer to that, its very simple, there isnt a JCBA.
 
The company is all ready on record accepting the Nic.

 

[im back..!!]

Not really RJ.
The current situation is far different from Reno and TWA.

IMHO, although I feel there is some risk exposure to the PHX, I feel that the LCC and AA systems should stay relatively intact and protect current jobs. Any system changes will most likely be mitigated by future planned retirements.

The LCC side has widebody jobs and future orders. The list should reflect a proportional access to those jobs at the combined company. Same goes down the list.

I have zero desire to bump or flush anyone as well as to take anyone else's flying if things go a little south for my side. The TWA guys at AA disagree with the previous statement.

---------------------------------------
 
your desire to not bump and flush is commendable. however you must be aware that the MOU has this specifically written as guidance for the panel of Arbitraitors... No Bump, No Flush....Tha company inserted that, they wont accept extra training, no matter our pissin matches over seniority...everyone will be grandfathered in there current position, we will be battling over future bidding rights, nothing more...
so, should you change your mind, rest assured, it won't happen....even if you desire it...
 
good luck to you on the AA side..... your seniority fate is now in the hands of 3 arbs.... i have seen the dark side of an unsupervised single arbitrator.
Luck is all either of us has.....

 

[im back..!!]

NYC,
I was reacting to your current description of "antics" regarding APA and the MB legislation.

The single carrier timeline was set long ago. The Judge and the law says APA will be the representative for the group and the 2-3 lists. Legally, there isn't another party to deal with. I'm not an expert, but I'd guess that USAPA knows this and that is the reason they are objecting to the single carrier filing. As long as it's not a single carrier, USAPA lives.

From what I've heard, APA didn't want the job of fixing your pathetic mess and was hoping for one list to combine with ours. Your side abstained and now somebody has to clean it up. Honestly, I'm PO'd that my union dues are now going to be spent on your Jerry Springer marathon.

Beers on me when it's all done.

Cheers

--------------------------------------
so, let me get this straight. if we were neighbors, and had a dispute over the seperating property line. You would be ok with me picking and advising your lawyer....do i have that right, really?

 

[im back..!!]

Agree that the Nic will be used as a starting point by any arbitrator, and that there's going to be a dovetail at best. DOH ain't gonna happen.

And no, to WT's "gotta know now" question, I wouldn't expect this to drag out as long as either US/HP and UA/CO.

For starters, the numbers don't support the gamesmanship of creating a new union just because you don't like the arbitration results.

Second, you won't see the process paralyzed by two MEC's within the same union refusing to come to an agreement.

--------------
showing your limited knowledge again i see. This arbitration is federal, not in house. there is nothing to question after this arbitration. It is law.

 

[im back..!!]

Fine, I'll be glad to give my money and support to the APA along with my West brothers and sisters.

----------------
Give your money to a homless guy, it will do as much good. once it goes to arbitration, and they hear each sides proposals/wishes, its done. USAPA will represent USAIRWAYS pilots (east and west) in front of the arbs. then there job is done. finished, arbs will rule and we all will learn to adjust to there wishes. I would hope that the arbs grant protections to the west in there PHX base. unfortunantly, the courts have ruled that the TA was never fullfilled. we had one accepted list, the NIC. never implemented, so never consumated. so, the NIC died along with our negotiations for a worthy Contract, that would have completed the TA and implemented the NIC.   Oh well......

 

[eolesen]

--------------
showing your limited knowledge again i see. This arbitration is federal, not in house. there is nothing to question after this arbitration. It is law.

Nothing to question, yet the Nic was ignored?...

 

[snapthis]

Nothing to question, yet the Nic was ignored?...

It was only final and binding if the East pilots agreed with the results.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It was only final and binding if the East pilots agreed with the results.

 
Well, yes.  Exactly.
 
It required a new contract ratified by each side separately.  The east pilots nixed the contract, and thereby nixed Nic.

 

[end_of_alpa]

No argument here.   From November 29, 2011, it was clear that the board had finally exhausted its patience with Arpey and his "bankruptcy is what failures do and we prefer to wait for the other airlines to be overly generous with their new contracts" strategy.   Instead, the board ordered him to cram new contracts down the throats of, primarily, the pilots and the flight attendants.   AA wanted to outsource 79-82 seat large RJs (finally agreed on the new industry-standard 76 seats).   From the pilots and the FAs, AA wanted to sweep away some of the "work rules" that management said were inefficient.   
 
AA wasn't broke and its business model wasn't broken as UA and DL had both merged and were showing promise of improvements with the same business model AA was using.   They had just become bigger than AA.   AA had amassed enough cash from various loans that it did not need to beg banks for debtor-in-possession financing.   
 
Of course, bankruptcy law requires that all work groups give up equal percentages and thus, the fleet service and mechanics (who were already poorly paid) had to give up the same 17% of their labor costs.    
 

If the SLI is handed to an arbitration panel, I don't see them trying to combine AA, US East and US West (America West).   Instead, I see them taking a shortcut and dusting off Nicolau's already-prepared list from 2007.   Nor do I see an arbitration panel starting from scratch and re-doing the US East and West integration all over again.   It's already done.   
 

You may be right, but I don't read those decisions as requiring that the 2007 list be ignored.   It was a snapshot, as you say, of the US pilots as of the merger.   
 
I'm not saying that the APA list and the NIC list will be combined just like the NIC list was created, only that they won't waste time and energy re-doing what Nicolau did in the last arbitration.   The facts and circumstances of this merger (AA and US) are different from the facts and circumstances of the last merger (US and HP).    The fact that a bunch of pilots tried to run away from an arbitration result with which they disagreed won't cause arbitrators to now ignore the existence of that list.   
 

Like I said - you may be right, but Judge Silver has no authority when it comes to SLI arbitration of the APA and USAPA pilots.   The Federal Arbitration Act declares arbitration off-limits to judicial interference.   Until over-ruled by higher courts, the Judge's opinions control the damages suit between the US East and US West pilot groups - nobody's disputing that.  
 
I merely predict that the APA list and the NIC list will be combined in a new arbitration later this year or next year.   And nobody's going to be particularly happy with the result, except perhaps the America West (US West) pilots.

The FAA doesn't apply to us. reread Circuit city stores vs. Adams. Hint. Supreme Court case.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You know the answer to that, its very simple, there isnt a JCBA.
 
The company is all ready on record accepting the Nic.

Again, for the record, because "the list" met their requirements of no bump and flush, etc.  the meaning of "acceptance" means that it met their conditions and restrictions in the Transition agreement.  It DOES NOT MEAN that it is the ONLY acceptable seniority list that could meet those conditions.  Additionally a seniority list is only one part of the JCBA.  If you knew anything about negotiations for the CBA some parts get amended if other parts get changed during negotiations.  In short, all parts are revised or can be revised until the FINAL PRODUCT.
 
And you claim to be an expert.  Hardly.  Read the LAW.

 

[MCI transplant]

And you thought TWA was bad!!!------LOL!

 

[snapthis]

Well, yes.  Exactly.
 
It required a new contract ratified by each side separately.  The east pilots nixed the contract, and thereby nixed Nic.

I fully understand what happened. If you did not like the results simply use the 2/3 majority for a second bite at the apple.

With AA, you won't have that option.