APA leadership meets with USAirways executives

[Super FLUF]

APA leadership meets with US Airways senior executives

posted on August 22, 2012 17:39

APA INFORMATION HOTLINE​

This is APA Communications Director Gregg Overman with a second APA Information Hotline update for Wednesday, August 22.

APA LEADERSHIP MEETS WITH US AIRWAYS SENIOR EXECUTIVES: This afternoon the APA National Officers and Board of Directors met with US Airways Chairman and CEO Doug Parker, US Airways President Scott Kirby and Elise Eberwein, Executive Vice President, People, Communications and Public Affairs. Along with providing an opportunity for the US Airways executives and APA President Keith Wilson to meet one another, this meeting also enabled the APA leadership to engage in a wide-ranging discussion with the US Airways executives about the potential for further industry consolidation.

 

[john john]

What is your point of posting a link that doesn’t work and not posting the whole update

 

[FWAAA]

That is the whole update. Fluf just posted the membership link instead of the public link. Here it is:

https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1228/articleId/1713/APA-leadership-meets-with-US-Airways-senior-executives.aspx

 

[bigjets]

This is all well and good, but what if AA doesn't merge with USair, perhaps AMR management has a different plan. Remember the APA is a UNION for pilots, they are not actually making the decisions for AMR!!!!! What if AMR actually buys USair, or merges with some other airline, and they are in SECRET negotiations right now.

 

[WorldTraveler]

or what if this is one more step in APA's attempts to obtain higher wages even though the UCC and mgmt has said they have no intention of increasing pay levels from what has been offered.

And then the question is what AA pilots really gain by agreeing to a merger with an airline at best pays only marginally higher than what AA pays now - and still below industry standard rates.

If AA pilots really thought that US was their best option, why the need to carry a sack of cash to convince them they need to sign... unless they really aren't convinced or there is some other party that US knows is negotiating as well, although perhaps a bit more discreetly.

 

[frontline]

Are the pilots back on this train again? What is the point of beating the same dead horse that the last guys did?

What did Einstein say about the definition of insanity? Repeating the same action over and over while expecting different results. Sounds exactly like the APA.

 

[wings396]

or what if this is one more step in APA's attempts to obtain higher wages even though the UCC and mgmt has said they have no intention of increasing pay levels from what has been offered.

And then the question is what AA pilots really gain by agreeing to a merger with an airline at best pays only marginally higher than what AA pays now - and still below industry standard rates.

If AA pilots really thought that US was their best option, why the need to carry a sack of cash to convince them they need to sign... unless they really aren't convinced or there is some other party that US knows is negotiating as well, although perhaps a bit more discreetly.

Once again, you are failing to look further down the road. Pay might only be a marginal difference, but has a better chance of moving up with combined company with greater revenue potential.

 

[Hopeful]

Once again, you are failing to look further down the road. Pay might only be a marginal difference, but has a better chance of moving up with combined company with greater revenue potential.

Oh, I didn't know pilot pay was so low, the only way they can go is up from their paltry compensation.

During this luvfest, I wonder if the group hug included HP and US pilots who still have not been integrated!!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

Once again, you are failing to look further down the road. Pay might only be a marginal difference, but has a better chance of moving up with combined company with greater revenue potential.

Sorry but you don't put together a business plan which includes pay raises that the AA pilots expect now based on revenue that MIGHT come in the future - also requiring that other airlines quietly sit back and allow AA and US to pull their merger off.

Do you really think the AA pilots are going to sign based on an IOU from Parker, esp. since US hasn't brought up the pay of its own people?

Do you really think that DL, UA, and WN are all going to sit quietly on the sidelines while AA and US put together a network that is a threat to all of them?

Do you really think that AA pilots believe they should share the revenue gains from this merger with US employees in order to bring their salaries up to industry standard levels. esp. pilots? The AA employees -along w/ everyone else - recognize that it is AA who has the revenue generating capability in this pairing. The revenue benefits from this merger will come disproportionately from AA employees because of its size in the merger. To think that AA employees - esp. the pilots - are going to use the revenue benefits from the merger to bring US employees - esp. the pilots - up to levels on par with AA employees (pilots) who are already higher paid is more than a pipe dream in corporate socialism.

The reality is that AA pilots are once again meeting w/ Parker to try to push AA to sweeten the deal. The creditors and mgmt have said they cannot and will not increase their pay - remember there are "me too" clauses that might require AA to sweeten the deal w/ other labor groups or face even more backlash from those same groups. Why they think that will change now, I don't know.

No one outside of APA leadership knows what the next step is after the abrogation which appears at this point to be certain but it appears that APA is trying to work through a checklist of strategies before escalating the process to the next step, one which has the potential to leave permanent damage on the careers of AA pilots and AA as a company.

AA's pilots seem to understand very well the risk they are taking - but they have also decided they are not going to accept the pay and benefits AA is proposing, and which US doesn't do much if anything to improve.

I find it very hard to believe that the APA will ultimately throw its support behind US, esp. if there are other alternatives on the table - and I believe there are and will be.

 

[Super FLUF]

Do you really think the AA pilots are going to sign based on an IOU from Parker, esp. since US hasn't brought up the pay of its own people?

There is more than an IOU which is not public. The ironic part is, the terms are industry standard, not industry leading. AA could have offered these same terms and avoided this whole debacle but noooooooooooo. Can't waste this golden opportunity to rape the employees now can we?

Do you really think that DL, UA, and WN are all going to sit quietly on the sidelines while AA and US put together a network that is a threat to all of them?

OK......so what are they going to do? Whine like a JT-8? DL and UA can bid all they want, but we both know that will never pass DOJ muster. You think WN will make a bid? What a great fleet match-up that would be.

The creditors and mgmt have said they cannot and will not increase their pay - remember there are "me too" clauses that might require AA to sweeten the deal w/ other labor groups or face even more backlash from those same groups. Why they think that will change now, I don't know.

AA will find a way to screw other employees out of their "me too". Look at the poor wording in the contract (particularly #2 in the drop dead clauses) -

2) The Company agrees that if the Company fails to implement the changes described
in paragraph 1 for any other non-APFA union or non-union employee group, without
implementing other changes that are reasonably projected by the Company to achieve
equivalent labor cost savings, the Company will meet with APFA to discuss and agree upon
a proportionate reduction in projected labor cost savings under the Agreement. This
paragraph shall expire upon the earlier of

1) six (6) months after the date the Company emerges from the bankruptcy process; or
2) when the changes described in paragraph 1, or other changes that are reasonably projected
by the Company to achieve equivalent labor cost savings, are implemented for all non-APFA
union or non-union employee groups.

The way I read this, the company can claim that is soon as our contract is abrogated, they can claim that they have achieved or at the very least are projected to achieve the costs savings they want. Poof! No more me too. Any positive changes after that to the pilot's contract will have no effect on anyone else's contract.

No one outside of APA leadership knows what the next step is after the abrogation which appears at this point to be certain but it appears that APA is trying to work through a checklist of strategies before escalating the process to the next step, one which has the potential to leave permanent damage on the careers of AA pilots and AA as a company.

Abrogating our contract is what will leave "permanent damage" on our careers and company. Working for someone who wants to pay us significantly more and give us better work rules, not so much.

I find it very hard to believe that the APA will ultimately throw its support behind US, esp. if there are other alternatives on the table - and I believe there are and will be.

Very probable. Many things going on behind the scenes with the UCC right now. Don't be surprised to see UCC intervention with our contract talks and/or ToHo gone.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I have discussed it multiple times before but there is no more basis for saying that AA-US merger has any less antitrust issues than an AA-DL or AA-B6. The simple fact is that AA is large enough that it will create antitrust issues regardless of the merger partner chosen - outside of perhaps F9 or AS or a partner in a region where AA has more strength.

If you as AA pilots want to throw yourselves behind an offer than MIGHT move you somewhat up the food chain but substantially less than DL, UA, or WN pilots make, then I don't want to hear any more whining about your pay.

You continue to approach the possibility of an AA-US merger on the basis of your doubts of AA mgmt - not on the basis of how to get the very best contract possible.

If you think that the supposed revenue synergies will be sufficient to raise the salaries of AA and US salaries to the levels that Parker promises without massive layoffs, you are sorely in for a rude awakening.

Finally, if you think that DL, UA, and WN and NK and B6 and VA are going to sit by on the sidelines and allow the merger to proceed, you truly have no concept of the competitive nature of the airline industry.

In case you have missed it, the competitive assaults on AA are at industry high levels. I have never seen as much competitive energy focused on attacking AA and US' key revenue - and neither are fighting back anywhere close to what is necessary to keep those competitors at bay. In absolutely dozens of markets across AA and US' system, w/ the largest focus on AA right now, competitors are seriously eroding AA's revenue generating capacity and they will only step up their attempts while AA and US try to figure out how to pull off a merger - which could take years to figure out.

I don't know how much longer you intend to keep flying commercially in the US but if it is longer than about 5 years and if AA and US merge, I can assure you that you'll be going through this exact same scenario again.

The economics of an AA-US merger simply don't work the way the AA supporters want to believe and Parker is advertising.

You will simply be kicking the can a little further down the road but not getting what you as pilots could have with other options or more importantly what is necessary to make AA a viable company long term.

BTW,
will the US merger happen before or after your fellow pilots burn the place down?

 

[wings396]

There is more than an IOU which is not public. The ironic part is, the terms are industry standard, not industry leading. AA could have offered these same terms and avoided this whole debacle but noooooooooooo. Can't waste this golden opportunity to rape the employees now can we?



OK......so what are they going to do? Whine like a JT-8? DL and UA can bid all they want, but we both know that will never pass DOJ muster. You think WN will make a bid? What a great fleet match-up that would be.



AA will find a way to screw other employees out of their "me too". Look at the poor wording in the contract (particularly #2 in the drop dead clauses) -

2) The Company agrees that if the Company fails to implement the changes described
in paragraph 1 for any other non-APFA union or non-union employee group, without
implementing other changes that are reasonably projected by the Company to achieve
equivalent labor cost savings, the Company will meet with APFA to discuss and agree upon
a proportionate reduction in projected labor cost savings under the Agreement. This
paragraph shall expire upon the earlier of

1) six (6) months after the date the Company emerges from the bankruptcy process; or
2) when the changes described in paragraph 1, or other changes that are reasonably projected
by the Company to achieve equivalent labor cost savings, are implemented for all non-APFA
union or non-union employee groups.

The way I read this, the company can claim that is soon as our contract is abrogated, they can claim that they have achieved or at the very least are projected to achieve the costs savings they want. Poof! No more me too. Any positive changes after that to the pilot's contract will have no effect on anyone else's contract.




Abrogating our contract is what will leave "permanent damage" on our careers and company. Working for someone who wants to pay us significantly more and give us better work rules, not so much.



Very probable. Many things going on behind the scenes with the UCC right now. Don't be surprised to see UCC intervention with our contract talks and/or ToHo gone.

Thanks for your input, its nice to hear someone's perspective that's inside of the box for a change.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thanks for your input, its nice to hear someone's perspective that's inside of the box for a change.

There actually are a lot fewer AA pilots speaking out right now than there have been at other times in the past.

Fluf might represent the thoughts of the majority of pilots and the APA - but honestly we don't know that.

It still doesn't change the fact which I have argued from the beginning that the creditors, not labor, make the final decision. The creditors have to be convinced that a US merger will result in the best recovery possible for them - and that is not known at this point.
Fluf is not even trying to say that the UCC is throwing its support behind an AA-US merger at this point - and I have yet to see anything that says they are.

There is, however, no doubt that AA mgmt and the creditors are looking for a solution to a situation that has the potential to spin wildly out of control at virtually any minute.

 

[Super FLUF]

I have discussed it multiple times before but there is no more basis for saying that AA-US merger has any less antitrust issues than an AA-DL or AA-B6. The simple fact is that AA is large enough that it will create antitrust issues regardless of the merger partner chosen - outside of perhaps F9 or AS or a partner in a region where AA has more strength.

If you as AA pilots want to throw yourselves behind an offer than MIGHT move you somewhat up the food chain but substantially less than DL, UA, or WN pilots make, then I don't want to hear any more whining about your pay.

You continue to approach the possibility of an AA-US merger on the basis of your doubts of AA mgmt - not on the basis of how to get the very best contract possible.

If you think that the supposed revenue synergies will be sufficient to raise the salaries of AA and US salaries to the levels that Parker promises without massive layoffs, you are sorely in for a rude awakening.

Finally, if you think that DL, UA, and WN and NK and B6 and VA are going to sit by on the sidelines and allow the merger to proceed, you truly have no concept of the competitive nature of the airline industry.

In case you have missed it, the competitive assaults on AA are at industry high levels. I have never seen as much competitive energy focused on attacking AA and US' key revenue - and neither are fighting back anywhere close to what is necessary to keep those competitors at bay. In absolutely dozens of markets across AA and US' system, w/ the largest focus on AA right now, competitors are seriously eroding AA's revenue generating capacity and they will only step up their attempts while AA and US try to figure out how to pull off a merger - which could take years to figure out.

I don't know how much longer you intend to keep flying commercially in the US but if it is longer than about 5 years and if AA and US merge, I can assure you that you'll be going through this exact same scenario again.

The economics of an AA-US merger simply don't work the way the AA supporters want to believe and Parker is advertising.

You will simply be kicking the can a little further down the road but not getting what you as pilots could have with other options or more importantly what is necessary to make AA a viable company long term.

BTW,
will the US merger happen before or after your fellow pilots burn the place down?

I'm sorry, what bank or aviation consulting firm did you say you worked for again? Was it Boyd's company perhaps?

You seem very sure of what WILL happen.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, I am not at all certain.

I would counter that there are plenty of supporters of the transaction - perhaps including you - that seem certain it will happen.

I simply don't at all see how the AA-US merger will deliver anywhere close to the benefits that anyone is proposing for labor or AA as a company, how it will be superior to other potential transactions, or how it will solve the strategic issues that AA and US face which include three other large airlines - DL, UA, and WN and a cast of smaller airlines who are all continuing if not stepping up their attacks on AA and US individually that we somehow are supposed to think will magically end when the merger is announced.

I have asked the tough questions that remain to be fully answered and have also thrown alternatives out there that should be weighed as part of the possible outcomes.

Some people don't want to answer those questions or at least are not - perhaps because they can't.